Woman kills boyfriend with help from a horse | Mom convicted in car crash homicide

Welcome to the Sidebar program, Sidebar program, Sidebar program, presented by True Crime News. presented by True Crime News. presented by True Crime News. We'll take you to the We'll take you to the We'll take you to the courtrooms of courtrooms of courtrooms of high-profile cases high-profile cases high-profile cases from across the from across the from across the country. I'm your host, country. I'm your host, country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I am a Joshua Ritter. I am a criminal defense attorney in criminal defense attorney in Los Angeles, and Los Angeles, and Los Angeles, and previously previously previously served as the served as the served as the Los Angeles County District Attorney for over ten years. Los Angeles County District Attorney for over ten years. Los Angeles County District Attorney for over ten years. We record this on We record this on We record this on Wednesday, October 14, Wednesday, October 14, Wednesday, October 14, 2026. In this 2026. In this 2026. In this week's episode: a former week's episode: a former week's episode: a former police officer police officer police officer accused of accused of accused of murdering his murdering his murdering his pregnant mistress pregnant mistress pregnant mistress when she when she when she threatened to expose threatened to expose threatened to expose their affair. their affair. their affair. Additionally, the woman driving the Additionally, the woman driving the Additionally, the woman driving the car during the car during the car during the fatal accident fatal accident fatal accident claims it was not her claims it was not her claims it was not her fault. But first, a fault. But first, a mother on trial for mother on trial for mother on trial for the murder of her ex, the murder of her ex, the murder of her ex, who she says who she says who she says abused her daughter. abused her daughter. abused her daughter. With us today is Imran With us today is Imran With us today is Imran Ansari, a lawyer, Ansari, a lawyer, Ansari, a lawyer, legal analyst, and legal analyst, and legal analyst, and close friend of our close friend of our close friend of our program. Imran, how are program. Imran, how are program. Imran, how are you, friend? Nice to you, friend? Nice to you, friend? Nice to see you again. see you again. see you again. Josh, nice Josh, nice Josh, nice to see you, thanks for to see you, thanks for to see you, thanks for inviting me. inviting me. inviting me. Undoubtedly. I am glad Undoubtedly. I am glad Undoubtedly. I am glad that we can that we can that we can discuss these cases, discuss these cases, discuss these cases, as they have as they have as they have interesting legal interesting legal interesting legal aspects that I think aspects that I think aspects that I think require your require your require your expertise to expertise to expertise to understand. understand.

So, let's get straight So, let's get straight to the point. First, from to the point. First, from to the point. First, from Palatka, I hope Palatka, I hope Palatka, I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly, I'm pronouncing it correctly, I'm pronouncing it correctly, Palatka, Florida Palatka, Florida , a woman , a woman , a woman accused of accused of accused of killing her ex killing her ex killing her ex with the help of her girlfriend with the help of her girlfriend with the help of her girlfriend and a horse has gone on and a horse has gone on and a horse has gone on trial. Kaylen trial. Kaylen trial. Kaylen Deller has been Deller has been Deller has been charged with charged with charged with the murder of her the murder of her the murder of her ex-boyfriend ex-boyfriend ex-boyfriend Chad Mullen, who Chad Mullen, who Chad Mullen, who was found in a shallow was found in a shallow was found in a shallow grave on a farm next grave on a farm next grave on a farm next to Deller's. to Deller's. to Deller's. Deller allegedly Deller allegedly Deller allegedly confessed to the crime to confessed to the crime to confessed to the crime to another ex- another ex- another ex- boyfriend, telling him boyfriend, telling him boyfriend, telling him that she shot that she shot that she shot the man twice because she was the man twice because she was the man twice because she was convinced that Mullen was convinced that Mullen was convinced that Mullen was clinging to clinging to clinging to or abusing her daughter. or abusing her daughter. or abusing her daughter. Prosecutors say that Prosecutors say that Prosecutors say that after the after the after the cold-blooded cold-blooded cold-blooded murder, Deller murder, Deller murder, Deller enlisted the help of enlisted the help of enlisted the help of her friend Tina her friend Tina her friend Tina Marie Ellis to Marie Ellis to Marie Ellis to dispose of dispose of dispose of Mullen's body. The women allegedly Mullen's body. The women allegedly Mullen's body. The women allegedly used a horse to used a horse to used a horse to drag drag drag Mullen's corpse to the pond and Mullen's corpse to the pond and Mullen's corpse to the pond and weigh it down with weigh it down with weigh it down with cinder blocks. When that cinder blocks. When that cinder blocks. When that didn't work, didn't work, didn't work, authorities said, authorities said, authorities said, Mullen was dragged to Mullen was dragged to Mullen was dragged to another location and buried another location and buried , where the body , where the body , where the body was later found by search was later found by search was later found by search dogs. While dogs. While dogs. While prosecutors laid out prosecutors laid out prosecutors laid out their case in their case in their case in opening statements, opening statements, opening statements, Deller's defense Deller's defense Deller's defense held back, deciding held back, deciding held back, deciding to wait until the to wait until the to wait until the prosecution prosecution finished finished presenting its presenting its presenting its evidence.

evidence. evidence. Deller's trial is ongoing, and the Deller's trial is ongoing, and the Deller's trial is ongoing, and the alleged accomplice alleged accomplice alleged accomplice will appear in a will appear in a will appear in a separate trial on charges of separate trial on charges of complicity, and we complicity, and we will keep you will keep you will keep you updated. There are many complexities in this case updated. There are many complexities in this case . There are many . There are many involved, Imran, involved, Imran, involved, Imran, but there are some interesting but there are some interesting but there are some interesting developments that you developments that you developments that you have learned about. Would you like have learned about. Would you like have learned about. Would you like to share this with to share this with to share this with us? us? us? Of course. You know, she Of course. You know, she Of course. You know, she took the floor and gave took the floor and gave took the floor and gave testimony. That is, testimony. That is, testimony. That is, Deller, the defendant, Deller, the defendant, Deller, the defendant, spoke in her own spoke in her own spoke in her own defense. And we talked defense. And we talked defense. And we talked about this, Josh, you about this, Josh, you about this, Josh, you mentioned that the mentioned that the mentioned that the defense decided to defense decided to defense decided to postpone its postpone its postpone its opening statement after opening statement after the prosecution the prosecution finished presenting its finished presenting its finished presenting its evidence. And I learn from evidence. And I learn from evidence. And I learn from reading the news from reading the news from reading the news from local local local news news news outlets near outlets near outlets near Jacksonville that they Jacksonville that they Jacksonville that they have made an opening have made an opening have made an opening statement and are building it on statement and are building it on statement and are building it on justification. She justification. She justification. She cites cites cites self-defense. So, self-defense. So, self-defense. So, she came out to she came out to she came out to testify. She is giving testify. She is giving testify. She is giving evidence. She says her evidence. She says her evidence. She says her ex-boyfriend ex-boyfriend ex-boyfriend attacked her, attacked her, attacked her, choked her, and eventually choked her, and eventually choked her, and eventually she took a gun and she took a gun and she took a gun and shot him in shot him in shot him in self-defense. self-defense. So, now we see So, now we see this this this defense developing through defense developing through defense developing through acquittal in the acquittal in the acquittal in the courtroom as this courtroom as this courtroom as this process continues. So it will be process continues. So it will be process continues. So it will be interesting to see interesting to see interesting to see how this how this how this develops develops develops over the next over the next over the next day or so.

day or so. day or so. I'm curious. Do you I'm curious. Do you I'm curious. Do you think that's why think that's why think that's why they might have postponed the they might have postponed the they might have postponed the application? If application? If application? If they were going to they were going to they were going to do that...I do that...I do that...I mean, it's one of those mean, it's one of those mean, it's one of those defenses that defenses that defenses that comes out of the mouth of the comes out of the mouth of the comes out of the mouth of the defendant himself. defendant himself. defendant himself. So there is no So there is no So there is no real evidence here that real evidence here that real evidence here that could be presented that the could be presented that the prosecution could have prosecution could have known about in advance, known about in advance, known about in advance, at least I don't see that at least I don't see that at least I don't see that it is obvious it is obvious . Is there a bit of... . Is there a bit of... I hate this word, I hate this word, I hate this word, but it's almost like " but it's almost like " card-hiding" in card-hiding" in card-hiding" in not including not including not including it in the opening statements, it in the opening statements, it in the opening statements, waiting for waiting for waiting for the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution to present its to present its to present its case, and then— case, and then— surprise, surprise— surprise, surprise— she she she was attacked first. was attacked first. was attacked first. Yes, from a strategic Yes, from a strategic Yes, from a strategic point of view, I think point of view, I think point of view, I think it could have been a good it could have been a good it could have been a good solution for defense, solution for defense, solution for defense, right? This...this...this is right? This...this...this is right? This...this...this is unconventional, isn't unconventional, isn't unconventional, isn't it? We, as trial it? We, as trial it? We, as trial lawyers, I'm a former lawyers, I'm a former lawyers, I'm a former prosecutor and now I prosecutor and now I prosecutor and now I do defense work, just like do defense work, just like do defense work, just like you, Josh. You want to make you, Josh. You want to make opening statements. As a opening statements. As a trial attorney, you trial attorney, you trial attorney, you feel the need to feel the need to feel the need to convey convey convey your client's position to your client's position to your client's position to the jury at the beginning of the the jury at the beginning of the the jury at the beginning of the trial. So you trial. So you trial. So you have to be have to be have to be patient, take a patient, take a patient, take a step back and say, step back and say, step back and say, "Look, we'll "Look, we'll "Look, we'll wait until wait until wait until the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution finishes presenting its finishes presenting its finishes presenting its evidence, and then we'll make our evidence, and then we'll make our opening statement." I opening statement." I think that might have been a think that might have been a think that might have been a wise decision here.

wise decision here. Let's see, because the Let's see, because the jury could have been jury could have been jury could have been completely focused completely focused completely focused on the on the on the defendant's testimony, with defendant's testimony, with defendant's testimony, with future future future testimony in mind. They testimony in mind. They testimony in mind. They are listening to the are listening to the are listening to the prosecution's evidence. They, prosecution's evidence. They, prosecution's evidence. They, you know, listen to the you know, listen to the prosecution prosecution calling witnesses and calling witnesses and calling witnesses and presenting evidence, presenting evidence, presenting evidence, but in their heads, somewhere but in their heads, somewhere but in their heads, somewhere subconsciously, they subconsciously, they subconsciously, they think: "Okay, we'll think: "Okay, we'll think: "Okay, we'll hear from the hear from the hear from the defendant herself." It seems defendant herself." It seems defendant herself." It seems they waited, they waited, they waited, allowed the jury allowed the jury allowed the jury to hear the to hear the to hear the prosecution's case, and I prosecution's case, and I prosecution's case, and I know that this case know that this case know that this case lacks lacks lacks forensic forensic forensic evidence that would evidence that would evidence that would link this link this link this alleged crime to a alleged crime to a alleged crime to a specific defendant specific defendant . There's not a lot of . There's not a lot of . There's not a lot of forensic forensic forensic evidence for evidence for evidence for the jury to consider, not a lot of, the jury to consider, not a lot of, the jury to consider, not a lot of, you know, text you know, text you know, text messages or messages or messages or anything like that for anything like that for anything like that for them to take into them to take into them to take into account. So this may account. So this may account. So this may be a strategy that be a strategy that be a strategy that will ultimately work for the will ultimately work for the will ultimately work for the defense, because defense, because defense, because they waited patiently, they waited patiently, they waited patiently, and now she's and now she's and now she's testifying and testifying and testifying and using the defense using the defense using the defense of justification, and of justification, and of justification, and now the jury is hearing now the jury is hearing now the jury is hearing from the defense's perspective from the defense's perspective from the defense's perspective why this crime might have why this crime might have why this crime might have happened: because she happened: because she happened: because she feared for her own feared for her own feared for her own safety.

safety. Yeah, I'm wondering too, Yeah, I'm wondering too, you know, because of the things you know, because of the things you know, because of the things you outlined where you outlined where you outlined where it was an indirect it was an indirect it was an indirect thing. Didn't the thing. Didn't the prosecution spend most of prosecution spend most of its time its time its time focusing focusing focusing on who did it on who did it , rather than what it was , rather than what it was , rather than what it was ? And now the defense has ? And now the defense has ? And now the defense has actually knocked actually knocked actually knocked the ground out from under their feet the ground out from under their feet the ground out from under their feet by saying, "This is by saying, "This is by saying, "This is not about who not about who not about who killed at all." She admits she killed at all." She admits she killed at all." She admits she did it. Now it's did it. Now it's becoming more of a becoming more of a case of what exactly case of what exactly case of what exactly it was. And they say it was. And they say : "Yes, she : "Yes, she : "Yes, she killed him, but she had an killed him, but she had an killed him, but she had an excuse, as you excuse, as you excuse, as you said, it was said, it was said, it was self-defense." Consequently, self-defense." Consequently, self-defense." Consequently, the prosecution did not the prosecution did not the prosecution did not have time to address have time to address have time to address many of these many of these many of these arguments during arguments during arguments during its case. its case. They may have been caught a little off They may have been caught a little off They may have been caught a little off guard, guard, guard, and I suppose they'll have to and I suppose they'll have to address that in their address that in their rebuttal. What do you rebuttal. What do you rebuttal. What do you think? think? think? That's right, isn't it? That's right, isn't it? That's right, isn't it? You know, You know, You know, the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution will get a chance, of course, first of all will get a chance, of course, first of all will get a chance, of course, first of all , to , to , to cross-examine cross-examine cross-examine the defendant, which they the defendant, which they the defendant, which they did. They're already did. They're already cross-examining the cross-examining the defendant on her defendant on her defendant on her testimony, but then they're testimony, but then they're testimony, but then they're going to present going to present going to present rebuttal evidence, rebuttal evidence, rebuttal evidence, because even if because even if because even if they didn't expect, they didn't expect, they didn't expect, you know, the depth of this you know, the depth of this you know, the depth of this defense, I'm sure defense, I'm sure defense, I'm sure they had a preview. There were they had a preview. There were they had a preview. There were some revelations of some revelations of some revelations of where the where the where the defense theory might be heading even before defense theory might be heading even before defense theory might be heading even before this trial; but if there this trial; but if there this trial; but if there is any surprise here, is any surprise here, is any surprise here, they may they may they may have to change have to change have to change course, make course, make course, make decisions quickly, and in the rebuttal case, decisions quickly, and in the rebuttal case, pay attention to pay attention to some things that some things that some things that the defense has put forward that the defense has put forward that the defense has put forward that they might not have they might not have they might not have expected in the main expected in the main expected in the main part of the case. So that will

part of the case. So that will part of the case. So that will certainly be something the certainly be something the prosecution prosecution prosecution will have to will have to will have to deal with. And also, deal with. And also, deal with. And also, you know, one of the you know, one of the you know, one of the aspects of this case aspects of this case is the alleged confession is the alleged confession is the alleged confession of the defendant, and it was of the defendant, and it was of the defendant, and it was made to another made to another made to another ex-boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, Josh. Uh, but they Josh. Uh, but they Josh. Uh, but they attacked, I mean attacked, I mean attacked, I mean , the , the , the defense attacked the defense attacked the defense attacked the testimony of that, uh, testimony of that, uh, testimony of that, uh, ex-boyfriend, because ex-boyfriend, because , I think, there were , I think, there were , I think, there were cases in the past cases in the past cases in the past where he was caught lying where he was caught lying where he was caught lying under oath under oath under oath and things like that. and things like that. and things like that. So, the defense has So, the defense has So, the defense has working material working material working material while they build while they build while they build their case. their case. In my opinion, when In my opinion, when the defendant gives the defendant gives the defendant gives evidence, the rest of the trial evidence, the rest of the trial evidence, the rest of the trial can almost be can almost be can almost be dismissed. I know that dismissed. I know that dismissed. I know that this is not entirely true, but it this is not entirely true, but it this is not entirely true, but it seems to me that a seems to me that a seems to me that a lot depends lot depends lot depends on how the on how the on how the defendant behaves defendant behaves . If they . If they . If they do very do very do very well, it may be well, it may be convincing enough for a convincing enough for a jury. But if there's jury. But if there's jury. But if there's something wrong with them, if something wrong with them, if something wrong with them, if they're hesitant or not they're hesitant or not they're hesitant or not completely truthful completely truthful completely truthful even in the little things, even in the little things, even in the little things, sometimes a jury sometimes a jury sometimes a jury can judge them on can judge them on can judge them on that alone and say, "If that alone and say, "If that alone and say, "If you're lying to me about you're lying to me about you're lying to me about the little things, you're probably the little things, you're probably the little things, you're probably lying about the big things lying about the big things , and I don't know if I believe , and I don't know if I believe , and I don't know if I believe you, no matter what the you, no matter what the other evidence looks like." What do you other evidence looks like." What do you think?

think? think? Absolutely, right? How Absolutely, right? How a witness, especially a a witness, especially a defendant defendant defendant accused of accused of accused of murder, testifies will be very murder, testifies will be very murder, testifies will be very important: how they important: how they important: how they hold themselves, how they hold themselves, how they hold themselves, how they testify, how they testify, how they testify, how they answer answer answer questions, not only questions, not only questions, not only during direct during direct during direct examination by their own examination by their own examination by their own attorney, but also during attorney, but also during attorney, but also during cross-examination. cross-examination. And this is truly the moment of And this is truly the moment of truth, the decisive truth, the decisive truth, the decisive moment. If you as a moment. If you as a moment. If you as a defendant make defendant make defendant make a decision, a final a decision, a final a decision, a final decision that you are not decision that you are not decision that you are not obligated to make obligated to make obligated to make under our under our under our Constitution, Constitution, Constitution, right? When you take right? When you take right? When you take the stand to testify the stand to testify the stand to testify in your defense, you in your defense, you in your defense, you need to be need to be need to be sure that sure that sure that you come across as a you come across as a you come across as a reliable witness, a reliable witness, a reliable witness, a witness who is believed, witness who is believed, witness who is believed, and a witness who and a witness who and a witness who will appeal to the will appeal to the will appeal to the jury to some degree, right? jury to some degree, right? They may not They may not like what like what like what you're you're you're accused of, but accused of, but accused of, but depending on what kind of depending on what kind of depending on what kind of defense you defense you defense you build, you'll build, you'll build, you'll have to sway the have to sway the have to sway the jury to your side jury to your side . By taking the stand, . By taking the stand, . By taking the stand, you as a defendant you as a defendant you as a defendant expose yourself to expose yourself to expose yourself to enormous risk enormous risk enormous risk because of the opinions because of the opinions because of the opinions of the jury when they of the jury when they of the jury when they see you there, and of see you there, and of see you there, and of course because of course because of course because of cross-examination by the cross-examination by the cross-examination by the prosecution.

prosecution. So this is a decision that is not So this is a decision that is not taken taken taken lightly. It is always the lightly. It is always the lightly. It is always the defendant's decision defendant's decision to do it or not. So to do it or not. So to do it or not. So even as you know, even as you know, even as you know, Josh, as a lawyer, as a Josh, as a lawyer, as a Josh, as a lawyer, as a defense attorney, if defense attorney, if defense attorney, if you advise your you advise your you advise your client, "Look, it's client, "Look, it's client, "Look, it's ultimately your choice ultimately your choice , but I don't think it's a , but I don't think it's a , but I don't think it's a good idea, for these and those good idea, for these and those good idea, for these and those reasons." If they reasons." If they reasons." If they eventually say, "I'll eventually say, "I'll eventually say, "I'll do it. I want to do it. I want to do it. I want to do it. You can't do it. You can't do it. You can't change my decision." change my decision." change my decision." Well, you know, it's their Well, you know, it's their Well, you know, it's their decision. But of course, decision. But of course, decision. But of course, this is something that should not be this is something that should not be this is something that should not be done in our done in our criminal criminal justice system. justice system. justice system. The defendant has the right The defendant has the right The defendant has the right to remain silent from to remain silent from to remain silent from the moment of arrest until the moment of arrest until the moment of arrest until the announcement of the verdict. the announcement of the verdict. the announcement of the verdict. But if you, as a But if you, as a But if you, as a defendant, have made defendant, have made defendant, have made such a decision, it is better such a decision, it is better such a decision, it is better to be prepared. It's best to be prepared. It's best to be prepared. It's best to be prepared from all to be prepared from all to be prepared from all angles: for direct angles: for direct angles: for direct examination, cross- examination, cross- examination, cross- examination, and from examination, and from examination, and from the perspective of the jury the perspective of the jury the perspective of the jury looking at you looking at you looking at you as you stand on the as you stand on the as you stand on the witness stand, weighing witness stand, weighing witness stand, weighing the charges the charges the charges brought against you. brought against you. Yes. Yes, an interesting Yes. Yes, an interesting development. We development. We development. We will continue to monitor will continue to monitor will continue to monitor this matter. this matter. this matter. Another fascinating Another fascinating Another fascinating case: case: case: a police officer a police officer a police officer accused of accused of accused of murdering his murdering his murdering his pregnant mistress is pregnant mistress is pregnant mistress is on trial in on trial in on trial in federal court for the federal court for the federal court for the alleged murder of a alleged murder of a alleged murder of a witness. Prosecutors witness. Prosecutors witness. Prosecutors allege that Matthew allege that Matthew allege that Matthew Farwell began a Farwell began a Farwell began a sexually sexually sexually exploitative exploitative exploitative relationship with the victim, relationship with the victim, relationship with the victim, Sandra Birchmore, when Sandra Birchmore, when Sandra Birchmore, when she was just 15 years old, she was just 15 years old, she was just 15 years old, within the within the within the Stoughton youth program.

Stoughton youth program. Stoughton youth program. The abuse continued into The abuse continued into Birchmore's adulthood, until the Birchmore's adulthood, until the expectant mother was expectant mother was expectant mother was found hanging in a found hanging in a found hanging in a sitting position sitting position sitting position on a doorknob. on a doorknob. on a doorknob. Although her Although her Although her death was initially ruled death was initially ruled death was initially ruled a suicide, an a suicide, an a suicide, an FBI investigation FBI investigation FBI investigation came to very different came to very different came to very different conclusions, ultimately conclusions, ultimately conclusions, ultimately charging charging Farwell. The Farwell. The former officer's defense former officer's defense former officer's defense insists they insists they insists they had a sexual had a sexual had a sexual relationship, but relationship, but relationship, but claims Birchmore claims Birchmore claims Birchmore took her own life took her own life took her own life when Farwell when Farwell when Farwell ended the relationship. ended the relationship. ended the relationship. However, on the day of his death, However, on the day of his death, However, on the day of his death, Farwell was seen Farwell was seen Farwell was seen entering entering entering Birchmore's apartment wearing a Birchmore's apartment wearing a Birchmore's apartment wearing a mask, despite mask, despite mask, despite being a staunch being a staunch being a staunch opponent of masks and opponent of masks and opponent of masks and his wife being about to his wife being about to his wife being about to give birth to their third give birth to their third give birth to their third child. Although the defense child. Although the defense child. Although the defense argued that argued that argued that Farwell Farwell Farwell only wore the mask to only wore the mask to only wore the mask to hide his hide his hide his affair, it could affair, it could affair, it could open the way for open the way for open the way for testimony from testimony from testimony from Farwell's other mistresses. Farwell's other mistresses. Farwell's other mistresses. Prosecutors say the Prosecutors say the married father married father married father had extramarital had extramarital had extramarital affairs with three affairs with three affairs with three other women and other women and other women and never tried to never tried to never tried to hide his hide his hide his promiscuity. Although promiscuity. Although promiscuity. Although their their their testimony was initially testimony was initially testimony was initially excluded, the new excluded, the new excluded, the new motion seeks to motion seeks to motion seeks to enlist their enlist their enlist their stories to stories to stories to show that show that show that Farwell's sole intent Farwell's sole intent Farwell's sole intent in hiding his in hiding his in hiding his identity was to identity was to identity was to cover up the crime of cover up the crime of Birchmore's murder.

Birchmore's murder. Birchmore's murder. Whether these Whether these Whether these explosive explosive explosive allegations will change the course of the allegations will change the course of the allegations will change the course of the case—only time will tell, case—only time will tell, case—only time will tell, but as the but as the but as the trial is being held behind closed trial is being held behind closed trial is being held behind closed doors in federal doors in federal doors in federal court, we'll continue to court, we'll continue to court, we'll continue to keep you updated. keep you updated. Good. For me, this is a Good. For me, this is a very interesting very interesting very interesting development. And development. And development. And first, I want first, I want first, I want to explain to those to explain to those to explain to those listening and watching listening and watching listening and watching about the way she about the way she about the way she was found, and why they was found, and why they was found, and why they came to came to came to the conclusion that it could have been an the conclusion that it could have been an the conclusion that it could have been an attempt on her own attempt on her own attempt on her own life, when it comes life, when it comes life, when it comes to a person to a person to a person hanging in a sitting hanging in a sitting hanging in a sitting position. In fact, position. In fact, position. In fact, without going into too much without going into too much without going into too much graphic detail, a graphic detail, a graphic detail, a fairly common fairly common fairly common way that people end their way that people end their lives is by tying something around their tying something around their neck, attaching it to neck, attaching it to neck, attaching it to something, like a something, like a something, like a doorknob, and doorknob, and doorknob, and simply leaning simply leaning simply leaning forward. Losing forward. Losing forward. Losing consciousness from their consciousness from their consciousness from their kneeling position kneeling position kneeling position and sinking into a state of and sinking into a state of and sinking into a state of amnesia, they amnesia, they amnesia, they eventually lose their eventually lose their eventually lose their lives. So, just lives. So, just lives. So, just to clarify why it's to clarify why it's to clarify why it's not immediately not immediately not immediately obvious that it obvious that it obvious that it wasn't suicide, but wasn't suicide, but wasn't suicide, but that it could have been. that it could have been. that it could have been. However, federal However, federal However, federal prosecutors said: " prosecutors said: " Wait, let's not Wait, let's not Wait, let's not jump to jump to jump to conclusions." They conclusions." They conclusions." They began to investigate other began to investigate other began to investigate other circumstances, including circumstances, including circumstances, including finding out that this finding out that this finding out that this officer, Farwell, had a officer, Farwell, had a officer, Farwell, had a sexual sexual sexual relationship with her that relationship with her that relationship with her that was actually was actually was actually violent violent violent because it began because it began because it began when she was a when she was a when she was a child. Okay, that child. Okay, that child. Okay, that brings us all up to brings us all up to brings us all up to speed. So, in the speed. So, in the speed. So, in the opening statements, opening statements, opening statements, the defense says, "Because he's the defense says, "Because he's the defense says, "Because he's wearing this mask." And wearing this mask." And wearing this mask." And the prosecution says the prosecution says the prosecution says he's wearing a mask he's wearing a mask he's wearing a mask because he's trying because he's trying because he's trying to hide his identity.

to hide his identity. to hide his identity. They say, "No, he They say, "No, he They say, "No, he wears a mask because he doesn't wears a mask because he doesn't wears a mask because he doesn't want to be want to be want to be caught cheating." caught cheating." caught cheating." The prosecution The prosecution The prosecution replies, "Ah, you replies, "Ah, you replies, "Ah, you opened that opened that opened that door yourself, sir, by mentioning door yourself, sir, by mentioning door yourself, sir, by mentioning it." Now we it." Now we it." Now we have to refute this have to refute this have to refute this accusation accusation accusation by presenting by presenting by presenting the jury with all these the jury with all these the jury with all these other women who will other women who will other women who will say, "Yes, he say, "Yes, he say, "Yes, he cheated on me, and cheated on me, and cheated on me, and he never wore a he never wore a he never wore a mask." I think this is a mask." I think this is a mask." I think this is a pretty strong pretty strong pretty strong argument. What do you argument. What do you argument. What do you think? think? think? Yes, no, definitely. I Yes, no, definitely. I Yes, no, definitely. I mean, mean, mean, normally that kind of evidence should normally that kind of evidence should normally that kind of evidence should n't have been n't have been n't have been accepted, and I think that's why the accepted, and I think that's why the accepted, and I think that's why the decision decision decision changed. The initial changed. The initial changed. The initial decision was decision was decision was that evidence that evidence that evidence about other affairs and about other affairs and about other affairs and testimony from other testimony from other testimony from other women he may have had women he may have had women he may have had relationships with would be relationships with would be relationships with would be rejected. But now rejected. But now rejected. But now the door is open, and you the door is open, and you the door is open, and you know the analysis know the analysis know the analysis the court makes about the court makes about the court makes about whether to exclude whether to exclude whether to exclude certain testimony: whether certain testimony: whether certain testimony: whether the harm the the harm the the harm the defendant suffers from that defendant suffers from that defendant suffers from that testimony outweighs testimony outweighs testimony outweighs its probative its probative its probative value. And initially, value. And initially, value. And initially, I believe the court said, I believe the court said, I believe the court said, "Okay, these other "Okay, these other "Okay, these other novels don't prove the novels don't prove the novels don't prove the main issue: did main issue: did main issue: did the defendant kill this the defendant kill this the defendant kill this particular victim?"

particular victim?" Now that the door Now that the door is open, right? is open, right? is open, right? Now, with this Now, with this Now, with this defense theory or defense theory or defense theory or explanation that he explanation that he explanation that he wore the mask because he wanted to wore the mask because he wanted to wore the mask because he wanted to hide his hide his hide his affairs, to hide affairs, to hide affairs, to hide his betrayal. That's an his betrayal. That's an his betrayal. That's an acceptable argument now, acceptable argument now, acceptable argument now, right? After all, if he did right? After all, if he did right? After all, if he did not do this in not do this in not do this in other cases, then this other cases, then this other cases, then this would tend to would tend to would tend to refute this refute this refute this theory of defense. And the theory of defense. And the prosecution should prosecution should be given the opportunity to be given the opportunity to be given the opportunity to bring in these other bring in these other bring in these other individuals and present individuals and present individuals and present evidence that might evidence that might evidence that might rebut this rebut this rebut this defense, right? So defense, right? So defense, right? So you always have to be you always have to be you always have to be careful, whether you're a careful, whether you're a careful, whether you're a prosecutor or a prosecutor or a prosecutor or a defense attorney, that you don't defense attorney, that you don't defense attorney, that you don't open the door to open the door to open the door to certain things that you certain things that you certain things that you wanted to keep out of wanted to keep out of wanted to keep out of this process. this process. Because if Because if certain testimony or certain testimony or certain testimony or evidence emerges, and now the other evidence emerges, and now the other evidence emerges, and now the other party, who was previously party, who was previously party, who was previously prohibited from prohibited from prohibited from using it, using it, using it, gets that gets that gets that opportunity because opportunity because opportunity because you opened that you opened that you opened that door, that could door, that could door, that could fundamentally change the fundamentally change the fundamentally change the course of the course of the course of the trial, right?

trial, right? You may be in a You may be in a strong position, strong position, strong position, no matter no matter no matter which side which side which side you represent, but you represent, but you represent, but as soon as the door as soon as the door as soon as the door opens to opens to opens to some evidence, you some evidence, you some evidence, you grab your head, grab your head, grab your head, asking how it asking how it asking how it happened, and find yourself happened, and find yourself happened, and find yourself in a situation where the in a situation where the in a situation where the evidence you evidence you evidence you sought to dismiss is sought to dismiss is sought to dismiss is now in the case. now in the case. I'm glad to be discussing I'm glad to be discussing this with you, because you this with you, because you this with you, because you have unique have unique have unique experience working with experience working with experience working with clients who have had clients who have had clients who have had evidence presented against them that evidence presented against them that evidence presented against them that effectively exposed effectively exposed effectively exposed them as bad people. them as bad people. I mean, I mean, there's a there's a there's a concern in this case: While concern in this case: While concern in this case: While bringing in evidence from bringing in evidence from bringing in evidence from these other affairs these other affairs these other affairs has some probative has some probative has some probative value on the value on the value on the limited issue limited issue limited issue of wearing a mask, it of wearing a mask, it of wearing a mask, it could have the side could have the side could have the side effect, the unintended effect, the unintended effect, the unintended consequence, of consequence, of consequence, of the jury just the jury just the jury just looking at him and looking at him and looking at him and thinking, "This guy is thinking, "This guy is a scumbag, I don't a scumbag, I don't a scumbag, I don't like scumbags, like scumbags, like scumbags, he cheats on his pregnant he cheats on his pregnant he cheats on his pregnant wife, he sleeps with wife, he sleeps with wife, he sleeps with a minor, and all that a minor, and all that a minor, and all that , so I'm , so I'm , so I'm just going to find him just going to find him just going to find him guilty because I believe that guilty because I believe that guilty because I believe that anyone who is capable of doing that is anyone who is capable of doing that is anyone who is capable of doing that is probably capable of probably capable of probably capable of murder murder ." This is a big problem ." This is a big problem ." This is a big problem if jurors if jurors if jurors ultimately ultimately ultimately do so, so do so, so do so, so prosecutors should prosecutors should prosecutors should proceed with caution or proceed with caution or proceed with caution or avoid avoid avoid such evidence altogether. What do such evidence altogether. What do such evidence altogether. What do you think the you think the you think the judge should do?

judge should do? This is a really difficult This is a really difficult question, isn't it? Because, question, isn't it? Because, question, isn't it? Because, as you pointed out, as you pointed out, as you pointed out, Josh, even as a Josh, even as a Josh, even as a prosecutor, you might prosecutor, you might prosecutor, you might want to include it want to include it want to include it now, but you have to be now, but you have to be now, but you have to be very careful, very careful, very careful, because in the event of a because in the event of a conviction, you could conviction, you could create grounds create grounds create grounds for appeal that the for appeal that the for appeal that the defense would immediately defense would immediately defense would immediately run to the run to the run to the appeals court with, appeals court with, appeals court with, claiming that it claiming that it claiming that it was biased. When was biased. When was biased. When you know, just for you know, just for you know, just for our listeners, when our listeners, when our listeners, when I say "biased," I say "biased," I say "biased," that's exactly what you were that's exactly what you were that's exactly what you were talking about, right? You know, talking about, right? You know, talking about, right? You know, this evidence about the other this evidence about the other this evidence about the other women, if it's women, if it's women, if it's admitted, admitted, admitted, the jury the jury the jury will focus will focus will focus on more than just the main question of on more than just the main question of on more than just the main question of whether this whether this whether this defendant committed murder. defendant committed murder. But they say, But they say, okay, well, you know, okay, well, you know, okay, well, you know, they look at they look at they look at him, maybe as a him, maybe as a him, maybe as a scumbag, right? Because he scumbag, right? Because he scumbag, right? Because he cheats. He was in a cheats. He was in a cheats. He was in a position of power. He is a position of power. He is a position of power. He is a police officer. The police officer. The police officer. The deceased was deceased was deceased was a minor who was a minor who was a minor who was participating in this participating in this participating in this police police police assistance program. And, assistance program. And, assistance program. And, you know, now you know, now all this dirty laundry is being aired out in public . And they don't . And they don't . And they don't focus on focus on focus on whether the defendant did it whether the defendant did it whether the defendant did it , and whether the , and whether the , and whether the prosecution proved prosecution proved prosecution proved its its its case beyond a reasonable case beyond a reasonable case beyond a reasonable doubt. They simply doubt. They simply doubt. They simply see him as an see him as an see him as an unpleasant person whom they unpleasant person whom they unpleasant person whom they want to condemn. So want to condemn. So , what , what , what should a judge do in such a situation? Well, should a judge do in such a situation? Well, should a judge do in such a situation? Well, they'll have to they'll have to they'll have to weigh all the pros and weigh all the pros and weigh all the pros and cons, or, you know, cons, or, you know, cons, or, you know, do this do this do this balance analysis. Does bias outweigh the balance analysis. Does bias outweigh the evidentiary value of evidentiary value of this? And now, when this? And now, when this? And now, when the defense said, " the defense said, " Okay, listen, Okay, listen, Okay, listen, he was wearing a mask because he he was wearing a mask because he he was wearing a mask because he just wanted to just wanted to just wanted to hide his betrayals hide his betrayals ." And is there any other

." And is there any other ." And is there any other way for way for way for the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution to refute this without to refute this without to refute this without creating a creating a creating a potential ground potential ground potential ground for appeal from the for appeal from the for appeal from the start? So, start? So, start? So, this will be something that the judge this will be something that the judge this will be something that the judge will have to will have to will have to consider carefully. And also, consider carefully. And also, consider carefully. And also, Josh, as you Josh, as you Josh, as you pointed out, pointed out, pointed out, the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution needs to proceed with needs to proceed with needs to proceed with caution. They need to caution. They need to caution. They need to think carefully about whether to think carefully about whether to think carefully about whether to make make make such a request. And such a request. And such a request. And we, as prosecutors or we, as prosecutors or we, as prosecutors or former prosecutors, former prosecutors, former prosecutors, for both of us, sometimes at the for both of us, sometimes at the for both of us, sometimes at the trial court level trial court level trial court level , when you're in the , when you're in the , when you're in the thick of the battle, thick of the battle, thick of the battle, in the courtroom, you in the courtroom, you in the courtroom, you only think about winning, only think about winning, only think about winning, right? Victory at right? Victory at right? Victory at this level. And sometimes this level. And sometimes this level. And sometimes it's easy to forget and it's easy to forget and it's easy to forget and say, "Okay, say, "Okay, say, "Okay, even if I win, even if I win, even if I win, won't that lead to an won't that lead to an won't that lead to an appeal that will undo appeal that will undo appeal that will undo all the hard work all the hard work all the hard work I put into this case?" I put into this case?" I put into this case?" Of course, I say this from Of course, I say this from Of course, I say this from my prosecutorial my prosecutorial my prosecutorial perspective. You know, perspective. You know, perspective. You know, sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that when you're a trial when you're a trial lawyer, in the lawyer, in the lawyer, in the thick of the battle, and your main thick of the battle, and your main thick of the battle, and your main goal is to get that goal is to get that goal is to get that first win or first win or conviction. And I have to conviction. And I have to tell our tell our tell our listeners that a prosecutor listeners that a prosecutor who wins who wins who wins seeks seeks seeks justice, right? justice, right? justice, right? I am not saying that the prosecutor I am not saying that the prosecutor I am not saying that the prosecutor should win at should win at any cost, unless it is to any cost, unless it is to any cost, unless it is to achieve achieve achieve justice justice justice according to the law.

according to the law. according to the law. But, you know, sometimes it But, you know, sometimes it But, you know, sometimes it gets lost, but you gets lost, but you gets lost, but you always have to think: always have to think: always have to think: we may win the court we may win the court , but the appeal may , but the appeal may , but the appeal may be successful, and we will be successful, and we will be successful, and we will have to start all over again have to start all over again have to start all over again . . . Yes, and these are not the Yes, and these are not the Yes, and these are not the concerns that a concerns that a concerns that a defense attorney would have. defense attorney would have. defense attorney would have. Other concerns that Other concerns that Other concerns that the prosecutor needs to the prosecutor needs to the prosecutor needs to keep in mind. This is not keep in mind. This is not keep in mind. This is not just a victory. You just a victory. You just a victory. You must make sure must make sure that the sentence remains that the sentence remains that the sentence remains in effect. We in effect. We in effect. We will continue to will continue to will continue to monitor this monitor this monitor this matter. As I matter. As I matter. As I said, this is a federal said, this is a federal said, this is a federal courthouse, so there are no cameras there courthouse, so there are no cameras there courthouse, so there are no cameras there , but we will continue to , but we will continue to , but we will continue to keep you updated keep you updated keep you updated . Finally, . Finally, . Finally, let's move on to let's move on to let's move on to Bunnell, Bunnell, Bunnell, Florida. Moments before the Florida. Moments before the Florida. Moments before the recording, we received a recording, we received a recording, we received a verdict in a case involving a verdict in a case involving a high-speed, sharp maneuver high-speed, sharp maneuver that that that killed a young killed a young killed a young man, and his man, and his man, and his ex-girlfriend ex-girlfriend ex-girlfriend was charged with was charged with reckless driving homicide . Prosecutors . Prosecutors . Prosecutors allege that Leah allege that Leah allege that Leah Mumby acted Mumby acted Mumby acted recklessly with recklessly with recklessly with the intent to harm the intent to harm the intent to harm Daniel Waterman Daniel Waterman Daniel Waterman when she suddenly when she suddenly when she suddenly swerved her car while swerved her car while swerved her car while traveling at traveling at traveling at 94 mph 94 mph 94 mph . And today the . And today the . And today the jury agreed jury agreed jury agreed with that, finding her with that, finding her with that, finding her guilty on all guilty on all guilty on all counts. According to counts. According to counts. According to the defense, this maneuver, the defense, this maneuver, the defense, this maneuver, which ended with the which ended with the which ended with the car flying into the forest, car flying into the forest, car flying into the forest, was a tragic was a tragic was a tragic accident, the accident, the accident, the result of result of result of unforeseen unforeseen unforeseen circumstances. However, authorities circumstances. However, authorities circumstances. However, authorities allege that on the day of the allege that on the day of the allege that on the day of the fatal incident, fatal incident, fatal incident, Mumby learned of the Mumby learned of the Mumby learned of the pregnancy from pregnancy from pregnancy from Waterman and Waterman and Waterman and became angry when he was became angry when he was became angry when he was texting texting texting another woman.

another woman. Waterman was Waterman was paralyzed in the paralyzed in the paralyzed in the incident and incident and incident and spent the rest of his spent the rest of his spent the rest of his life mostly in a life mostly in a life mostly in a coma before dying coma before dying coma before dying 8 months after the 8 months after the 8 months after the accident. Before taking his own accident. Before taking his own accident. Before taking his own life, Waterman life, Waterman life, Waterman told authorities that told authorities that told authorities that Mumby intentionally Mumby intentionally Mumby intentionally crashed the car crashed the car crashed the car to punish him, to punish him, to punish him, telling the victim, "You're telling the victim, "You're telling the victim, "You're going to get what you going to get what you going to get what you deserve," before the deserve," before the deserve," before the collision. However, this collision. However, this collision. However, this statement did not make it to statement did not make it to statement did not make it to court because court because court because Mumby's defense was unable to question Mumby's defense was unable to question Mumby's defense was unable to question Waterman, so the Waterman, so the Waterman, so the final word final word final word was left to was left to was left to the jury, as was the case the jury, as was the case the jury, as was the case today today today regarding this incident. regarding this incident. Okay, I just want to Okay, I just want to make it clear, even make it clear, even make it clear, even though we're talking though we're talking though we're talking after the fact, and after the fact, and after the fact, and obviously the jury did obviously the jury did obviously the jury did n't have a problem with it, n't have a problem with it, n't have a problem with it, I still think the I still think the I still think the situation is very interesting. situation is very interesting. situation is very interesting. So you have two So you have two So you have two levels of rumors. You have a levels of rumors. You have a levels of rumors. You have a statement that the defendant statement that the defendant statement that the defendant makes to the victim, and makes to the victim, and makes to the victim, and then a statement from the victim then a statement from the victim then a statement from the victim telling the authorities what telling the authorities what telling the authorities what she she she said. But the victim said. But the victim said. But the victim dies. So why dies. So why dies. So why couldn't they couldn't they couldn't they include this statement?

include this statement? Yes, Josh, I Yes, Josh, I was thinking about that too, wasn't I? was thinking about that too, wasn't I? was thinking about that too, wasn't I? Because there's an exception Because there's an exception Because there's an exception to the hearsay rule to the hearsay rule to the hearsay rule that actually that actually that actually applies in applies in applies in murder cases murder cases murder cases more often than you more often than you more often than you think, right? If think, right? If think, right? If the circumstances are correct the circumstances are correct the circumstances are correct and there is a declaration. and there is a declaration. and there is a declaration. What declaration am I What declaration am I What declaration am I talking about? This is talking about? This is talking about? This is called a " called a " deathbed statement," deathbed statement," deathbed statement," and it's an exception to the and it's an exception to the and it's an exception to the rule about hearsay, rule about hearsay, rule about hearsay, where, let's say, a person where, let's say, a person where, let's say, a person eventually dies, eventually dies, eventually dies, and you can imagine it: and you can imagine it: and you can imagine it: their head is in their head is in their head is in the hands of a the hands of a the hands of a police officer, you hear police officer, you hear police officer, you hear sirens wailing, and they sirens wailing, and they sirens wailing, and they say, "Oh, that was John say, "Oh, that was John say, "Oh, that was John Doe who Doe who Doe who shot me." "And then he shot me." "And then he shot me." "And then he dies, right? Well, that's what a dies, right? Well, that's what a dies, right? Well, that's what a dying declaration is. dying declaration is. dying declaration is. It can be It can be It can be admitted in court as an admitted in court as an admitted in court as an exception to the exception to the exception to the hearsay rule, but hearsay rule, but hearsay rule, but certain conditions have to be met certain conditions have to be met certain conditions have to be met , and all the , and all the , and all the circumstances have to be in a circumstances have to be in a circumstances have to be in a certain certain certain way. So, I think, way. So, I think, way. So, I think, Josh, I haven't had Josh, I haven't had Josh, I haven't had a chance to know a chance to know a chance to know all the details, but we all the details, but we all the details, but we know that this declaration know that this declaration know that this declaration was rejected and didn't was rejected and didn't was rejected and didn't make it to court. It make it to court. It make it to court. It happened in the hospital. It happened in the hospital. It happened in the hospital. It happened, I think, happened, I think, happened, I think, maybe a few maybe a few maybe a few months after this months after this months after this terrible accident. I don't terrible accident. I don't terrible accident. I don't know the time know the time know the time period between this period between this period between this statement statement statement to the police and when to the police and when to the police and when he said that the he said that the he said that the defendant told defendant told defendant told him this before he died, him this before he died, him this before he died, but I assume it was but I assume it was but I assume it was n't n't n't immediately before he immediately before he immediately before he died. I don't think he died. I don't think he died. I don't think he knew he was actually knew he was actually knew he was actually dying. He knew he

dying. He knew he dying. He knew he was seriously injured, was seriously injured, was seriously injured, but I'm not sure if he but I'm not sure if he but I'm not sure if he knew he was dying. knew he was dying. knew he was dying. So, therefore, not all So, therefore, not all So, therefore, not all the conditions were met the conditions were met the conditions were met for this for this for this dying declaration to dying declaration to dying declaration to be admitted, be admitted, be admitted, because I think, that there because I think, that there because I think, that there was no immediate was no immediate was no immediate proximity to death. proximity to death. proximity to death. He wasn't literally He wasn't literally He wasn't literally on his deathbed, on his deathbed, on his deathbed, although he was seriously although he was seriously although he was seriously injured. So that didn't injured. So that didn't injured. So that didn't come into this come into this come into this case. And I think that's why case. And I think that's why case. And I think that's why it happened, it happened, it happened, because at first I thought, because at first I thought, "Wait a second, isn't this a "Wait a second, isn't this a "Wait a second, isn't this a deathbed statement?" Should deathbed statement?" Should deathbed statement?" Should n't it have been n't it have been n't it have been accepted? Shouldn't the accepted? Shouldn't the jury have heard that? jury have heard that? But that's my guess But that's my guess But that's my guess as to what happened. as to what happened. as to what happened. No, I think you're No, I think you're No, I think you're absolutely right. That's exactly what absolutely right. That's exactly what absolutely right. That's exactly what happened, and it's happened, and it's happened, and it's interesting because, as you interesting because, as you interesting because, as you pointed out, a pointed out, a pointed out, a deathbed statement deathbed statement is not just a statement is not just a statement is not just a statement you make before you you make before you you make before you die; You must be die; You must be die; You must be aware that you are aware that you are aware that you are dying when dying when dying when you make this statement, you make this statement, you make this statement, because it gives some because it gives some because it gives some indication of reliability indication of reliability . And that's what we always . And that's what we always . And that's what we always look for when there's an look for when there's an look for when there's an exception to the exception to the exception to the rumor rule. It is the belief that rumor rule. It is the belief that rumor rule. It is the belief that a person who a person who a person who believes they are believes they are believes they are dying is likely dying is likely dying is likely to be telling the truth. Er to be telling the truth. Er , and that simply , and that simply , and that simply wasn't the case, wasn't the case, wasn't the case, so that statement wasn't so that statement wasn't so that statement wasn't accepted, but the accepted, but the accepted, but the jury apparently did jury apparently did jury apparently did n't have a problem with it n't have a problem with it n't have a problem with it . By the way, this . By the way, this . By the way, this thing went by like thing went by like thing went by like lightning.

lightning. lightning. They They They began jury selection earlier began jury selection earlier began jury selection earlier this week. We this week. We this week. We record this on Wednesday record this on Wednesday . They started on . They started on . They started on Monday. They Monday. They Monday. They presented the entire presented the entire presented the entire case over the past 2 case over the past 2 case over the past 2 days and it took the jury days and it took the jury days and it took the jury just just just over 70 minutes to over 70 minutes to over 70 minutes to find her guilty. find her guilty. find her guilty. So, obviously, the case So, obviously, the case So, obviously, the case was pretty was pretty was pretty compelling. The defense, compelling. The defense, compelling. The defense, essentially, was that essentially, was that essentially, was that it didn't make it didn't make it didn't make sense. This is actually sense. This is actually sense. This is actually a quote from her lawyer, a quote from her lawyer, a quote from her lawyer, Reed Hart. He says: "It Reed Hart. He says: "It all comes down to all comes down to all comes down to one question. Does it one question. Does it one question. Does it make sense, based on the make sense, based on the make sense, based on the evidence evidence evidence presented to you, that presented to you, that Ms. Manby Ms. Manby Ms. Manby chose to drive chose to drive chose to drive the car in the the car in the the car in the manner described, or is it more logical manner described, or is it more logical manner described, or is it more logical that something happened in the car that that something happened in the car that that something happened in the car that she did not she did not she did not expect, did not expect, did not expect, did not foresee and foresee and foresee and could not control?" could not control?" This is a case where are there This is a case where are there two reasonable two reasonable two reasonable explanations for the same explanations for the same explanations for the same set of set of set of circumstances? Tell circumstances? Tell circumstances? Tell us about this defense and us about this defense and us about this defense and why you think why you think why you think it didn't work here? it didn't work here? it didn't work here? Yes, Josh, I think it didn't Yes, Josh, I think it didn't Yes, Josh, I think it didn't work, because work, because work, because ultimately you have to ultimately you have to ultimately you have to go back to what the go back to what the prosecution had to prove. They didn't prosecution had to prove. They didn't have to have to have to prove premeditated prove premeditated prove premeditated murder. They just murder. They just murder. They just had to show— had to show— I'll put it in simple I'll put it in simple I'll put it in simple terms that terms that terms that the jury came to—that the jury came to—that the jury came to—that she was driving she was driving recklessly. We recklessly. We know she was going know she was going know she was going over 100 over 100 over 100 miles per hour. There was miles per hour. There was miles per hour. There was some heated some heated some heated debate. Of course, debate. Of course, debate. Of course, there were some there were some there were some differences between her differences between her differences between her and the deceased. I think

and the deceased. I think and the deceased. I think she told him she was she told him she was she told him she was pregnant. He did pregnant. He did pregnant. He did n't seem n't seem n't seem thrilled. He thrilled. He thrilled. He was corresponding with another was corresponding with another was corresponding with another woman. And at that woman. And at that woman. And at that point, when she point, when she point, when she was driving, she was driving, she was driving, she was angry, wasn't was angry, wasn't was angry, wasn't she? She was a she? She was a she? She was a neglected woman, neglected woman, neglected woman, if you will. She if you will. She if you will. She drove the car drove the car drove the car so recklessly, did so recklessly, did so recklessly, did n't she? Essentially, n't she? Essentially, n't she? Essentially, disregarding human disregarding human disregarding human life. This life. This life. This caused the accident caused the accident caused the accident that ultimately led that ultimately led that ultimately led to his death. Therefore, to his death. Therefore, to his death. Therefore, the jury the jury the jury only needed to establish a only needed to establish a only needed to establish a standard of standard of standard of recklessness, not recklessness, not recklessness, not intent. And I think, intent. And I think, intent. And I think, based on the facts and based on the facts and based on the facts and evidence that were evidence that were evidence that were presented, they presented, they presented, they managed to do that. I managed to do that. I managed to do that. I think the think the think the prosecution— prosecution— as far as I understand— as far as I understand— summarized and summarized and summarized and conveyed that thought to the conveyed that thought to the conveyed that thought to the jury. You don't jury. You don't jury. You don't need to need to need to establish that establish that establish that she intentionally she intentionally she intentionally tried to kill or tried to kill or tried to kill or intentionally killed him. The intentionally killed him. The intentionally killed him. The fact is that her fact is that her fact is that her driving style was driving style was driving style was so so so reckless that it became reckless that it became reckless that it became criminal. And it was a criminal. And it was a vehicular homicide . And I think they . And I think they . And I think they were able to prove these were able to prove these were able to prove these facts simply facts simply facts simply based on the circumstances of the based on the circumstances of the based on the circumstances of the case and how case and how case and how she was driving. The she was driving. The she was driving. The defense theory, in defense theory, in defense theory, in my opinion, does not my opinion, does not my opinion, does not stand up to criticism. Well, was there stand up to criticism. Well, was there stand up to criticism. Well, was there any any any real, solid evidence real, solid evidence that there that there might have been a might have been a might have been a mechanical mechanical mechanical failure? No. Did failure? No. Did failure? No. Did the defense present the defense present the defense present any any any compelling evidence to the jury that there compelling evidence to the jury that there compelling evidence to the jury that there was was was some kind of breakdown, that some kind of breakdown, that some kind of breakdown, that she had some kind of she had some kind of she had some kind of attack that caused her to attack that caused her to attack that caused her to crash the car, or crash the car, or crash the car, or at least that she was at least that she was at least that she was driving driving driving so dangerously so dangerously that it inevitably that it inevitably that it inevitably led to an accident?

led to an accident? led to an accident? They don't even need They don't even need They don't even need to prove that she to prove that she to prove that she crashed intentionally. crashed intentionally. crashed intentionally. The fact is that The fact is that The fact is that the way she the way she the way she drove the car was drove the car was drove the car was so so so dangerous and so dangerous and so dangerous and so disregardful of human disregardful of human disregardful of human life that it life that it life that it met all the met all the met all the criteria for a crime. And I criteria for a crime. And I criteria for a crime. And I think that's why they think that's why they think that's why they came to such a came to such a came to such a quick verdict, I quick verdict, I quick verdict, I think in 71 think in 71 think in 71 minutes, based on minutes, based on minutes, based on this evidence. And I don't this evidence. And I don't this evidence. And I don't think the defense think the defense think the defense had any had any had any logical explanation logical explanation logical explanation to actually to actually to actually refute or refute or refute or attack the attack the attack the prosecution's position. prosecution's position. prosecution's position. Yes, I think you're Yes, I think you're Yes, I think you're right, and apparently the right, and apparently the right, and apparently the jury thinks so too jury thinks so too jury thinks so too . It didn't take . It didn't take . It didn't take them much them much them much time. She faces a time. She faces a time. She faces a maximum of 20 years maximum of 20 years maximum of 20 years in prison for all of this. in prison for all of this. And I should point out, so that And I should point out, so that our viewers and our viewers and our viewers and listeners are not listeners are not listeners are not surprised: she was surprised: she was surprised: she was pregnant; the child pregnant; the child pregnant; the child survived, and now survived, and now survived, and now the tragedy is that this the tragedy is that this the tragedy is that this child will never child will never child will never know his father know his father know his father and will only see his mother and will only see his mother and will only see his mother through bars for through bars for through bars for most of most of most of his childhood, if his childhood, if his childhood, if he ever gets out of he ever gets out of he ever gets out of prison at all. So this is prison at all. So this is prison at all. So this is truly a tragic truly a tragic truly a tragic case, caused by a case, caused by a case, caused by a momentary outburst of momentary outburst of momentary outburst of anger and a anger and a anger and a lack of understanding of the lack of understanding of the lack of understanding of the terrible consequences of terrible consequences of terrible consequences of one's actions. But one's actions. But one's actions. But we we we will stop there for now. Imran, it's will stop there for now. Imran, it's will stop there for now. Imran, it's always a pleasure to always a pleasure to always a pleasure to see you, and I sincerely see you, and I sincerely see you, and I sincerely appreciate your participation appreciate your participation appreciate your participation this week. Where this week. Where this week. Where can people learn can people learn can people learn more about you?

more about you? more about you? Of course, you can Of course, you can Of course, you can find me on Instagram and find me on Instagram and find me on Instagram and by request Imran, by request Imran, by request Imran, sorry, esq. Also my sorry, esq. Also my sorry, esq. Also my law firm Idala law firm Idala law firm Idala Bartune and Cannons PC, idalalaw.com. Bartune and Cannons PC, idalalaw.com. Bartune and Cannons PC, idalalaw.com. Fantasy. I'm your Fantasy. I'm your Fantasy. I'm your host Josh Ritter, you host Josh Ritter, you host Josh Ritter, you can find me on can find me on can find me on Instagram and Twitter as Instagram and Twitter as Instagram and Twitter as Joshua Ritter esq. And Joshua Ritter esq. And Joshua Ritter esq. And if you want to hear if you want to hear if you want to hear my thoughts and reviews my thoughts and reviews my thoughts and reviews on even more on even more on even more true crime cases, true crime cases, true crime cases, please visit my please visit my please visit my YouTube channel Courtroom YouTube channel Courtroom YouTube channel Courtroom Confidential. And you can, of course, Confidential. And you can, of course, Confidential. And you can, of course, find all of find all of find all of our Sidebar episodes wherever our Sidebar episodes wherever our Sidebar episodes wherever you usually you usually you usually listen to podcasts, and listen to podcasts, and listen to podcasts, and we'd love to hear we'd love to hear we'd love to hear your feedback. If your feedback. If your feedback. If you have any questions or you have any questions or you have any questions or comments you comments you comments you would like us to would like us to would like us to answer, please answer, please answer, please send them to Twitter send them to Twitter send them to Twitter with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. Thank you for Thank you for Thank you for joining us at joining us at joining us at True Crime News Sidebar.