How Do You Want Your Children to Remember You? (with Michael Keller) [Gospelbound Ep. 193]

I got one of the better gospel I got one of the better gospel presentations [music] presentations [music] presentations [music] in home in my home. And guess what? I in home in my home. And guess what? I in home in my home. And guess what? I wasn't saved by that gospel wasn't saved by that gospel wasn't saved by that gospel presentation. You know why? Because presentation. You know why? Because presentation. You know why? Because you're [music] not saved by a by the you're [music] not saved by a by the you're [music] not saved by a by the best gospel presentation. You're saved best gospel presentation. You're saved best gospel presentation. You're saved by the gospel. I think it's really by the gospel. I think it's really by the gospel. I think it's really important for people to hear is that important for people to hear is that important for people to hear is that it's not you're not going to save your it's not you're not going to save your it's not you're not going to save your kid because you [music] do the perfect kid because you [music] do the perfect kid because you [music] do the perfect statement and gospel presentation. And I statement and gospel presentation. And I statement and gospel presentation. And I wasn't. I grew up with that. It was only wasn't. I grew up with that. It was only wasn't. I grew up with that. It was only later in college through a [music] later in college through a [music] later in college through a [music] college ministry that I was able to uh college ministry that I was able to uh college ministry that I was able to uh come to faith through a [music] long come to faith through a [music] long come to faith through a [music] long difficult process. But what did help was difficult process. But what did help was difficult process. But what did help was seeing my parents forgive [music] and seeing my parents forgive [music] and seeing my parents forgive [music] and repent. So it's it that was a better repent. So it's it that was a better repent. So it's it that was a better distillation of the gospel in action distillation of the gospel in action distillation of the gospel in action [music] for me than any kind of thing [music] for me than any kind of thing [music] for me than any kind of thing that my parents said for me growing up. that my parents said for me growing up. that my parents said for me growing up. [music] I want to tell a story about [music] how I want to tell a story about [music] how I learned something that changed my I learned something that changed my I learned something that changed my life. It was [music] the first Keller life. It was [music] the first Keller life. It was [music] the first Keller Center retreat in 2023.

Center retreat in 2023. Center retreat in 2023. Our inaugural fellows, a couple dozen of Our inaugural fellows, a couple dozen of Our inaugural fellows, a couple dozen of them, did not know each other well. We them, did not know each other well. We them, did not know each other well. We had just finished a team building had just finished a team building had just finished a team building scavenger hunt crisscrossing Manhattan scavenger hunt crisscrossing Manhattan scavenger hunt crisscrossing Manhattan and we settled into a Sunday school room and we settled into a Sunday school room and we settled into a Sunday school room at Redeemer Westside West 83rd Street. at Redeemer Westside West 83rd Street. at Redeemer Westside West 83rd Street. We're about to do a Zoom call with Tim We're about to do a Zoom call with Tim We're about to do a Zoom call with Tim Keller from his hospital room and it Keller from his hospital room and it Keller from his hospital room and it ended up being the last time that many ended up being the last time that many ended up being the last time that many of us spoke with him. He would die of us spoke with him. He would die of us spoke with him. He would die within weeks and part of what he did within weeks and part of what he did within weeks and part of what he did there was leave notes behind of what he there was leave notes behind of what he there was leave notes behind of what he wanted to see from the Keller Center for wanted to see from the Keller Center for wanted to see from the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. Now, in the exercise we did in that Now, in the exercise we did in that Now, in the exercise we did in that Sunday school room before we talked to Sunday school room before we talked to Sunday school room before we talked to Tim, I led a discussion on the great Tim, I led a discussion on the great Tim, I led a discussion on the great deurching, this unprecedented decline in deurching, this unprecedented decline in deurching, this unprecedented decline in Christian practice in the United States Christian practice in the United States Christian practice in the United States since the year 2000. I've led this since the year 2000. I've led this since the year 2000. I've led this exercise many times before and since exercise many times before and since exercise many times before and since without incident, the goal is really to without incident, the goal is really to without incident, the goal is really to identify what events and trends really identify what events and trends really identify what events and trends really shift culture. In this case, a majority shift culture. In this case, a majority shift culture. In this case, a majority of Americans had the internet in their of Americans had the internet in their of Americans had the internet in their homes by the year 2000. That was the homes by the year 2000. That was the homes by the year 2000. That was the that was the tipping point at that was the tipping point at that was the tipping point at smartphones, social media, now AI. And smartphones, social media, now AI. And smartphones, social media, now AI. And you can see that the dawn of the you can see that the dawn of the you can see that the dawn of the information age is perhaps the biggest information age is perhaps the biggest information age is perhaps the biggest story of the 21st century so far. But story of the 21st century so far. But story of the 21st century so far. But this exercise did not sit well with many this exercise did not sit well with many this exercise did not sit well with many of our fellows. In part, we weren't very of our fellows. In part, we weren't very of our fellows. In part, we weren't very comfortable with each other. Some wanted comfortable with each other. Some wanted comfortable with each other. Some wanted to dig a lot deeper with ideas and go a to dig a lot deeper with ideas and go a to dig a lot deeper with ideas and go a lot further back into history. Others lot further back into history. Others lot further back into history. Others saw the internet as more of a vehicle saw the internet as more of a vehicle saw the internet as more of a vehicle rather than the driver of cultural rather than the driver of cultural rather than the driver of cultural change. I think some just due to my lack change. I think some just due to my lack change. I think some just due to my lack of leadership misunderstood the exercise of leadership misunderstood the exercise of leadership misunderstood the exercise altogether. But I will never forget altogether. But I will never forget altogether. But I will never forget Michael Keller's response. Uh he pulled

Michael Keller's response. Uh he pulled Michael Keller's response. Uh he pulled some of his dad's notes on how to share some of his dad's notes on how to share some of his dad's notes on how to share the gospel in our current age. And he the gospel in our current age. And he the gospel in our current age. And he described various overlapping and described various overlapping and described various overlapping and conflicting cultural narratives that conflicting cultural narratives that conflicting cultural narratives that help us make sense of the world apart help us make sense of the world apart help us make sense of the world apart from God. And then he showed how Jesus from God. And then he showed how Jesus from God. And then he showed how Jesus critiques and ultimately completes those critiques and ultimately completes those critiques and ultimately completes those narratives. Just brilliant work. And the narratives. Just brilliant work. And the narratives. Just brilliant work. And the whole center immediately rallied around whole center immediately rallied around whole center immediately rallied around that idea. That's what led to us that idea. That's what led to us that idea. That's what led to us recording and writing the group study, recording and writing the group study, recording and writing the group study, making sense of us, exploring six making sense of us, exploring six making sense of us, exploring six stories that shape how we live. Michael stories that shape how we live. Michael stories that shape how we live. Michael Keller graciously wrote the forward and Keller graciously wrote the forward and Keller graciously wrote the forward and we rallied behind a new book, The we rallied behind a new book, The we rallied behind a new book, The Stories We Live By, seven cultural myths Stories We Live By, seven cultural myths Stories We Live By, seven cultural myths that fail us in the story that never that fail us in the story that never that fail us in the story that never will, published by Zanderville. It's will, published by Zanderville. It's will, published by Zanderville. It's written by Michael and his father Tim written by Michael and his father Tim written by Michael and his father Tim based on those notes that we saw in based on those notes that we saw in based on those notes that we saw in 2023. 2023. 2023. Ever since that day, I've adapted what I Ever since that day, I've adapted what I Ever since that day, I've adapted what I learned into my own teaching, not just learned into my own teaching, not just learned into my own teaching, not just about cultural narratives, but about how about cultural narratives, but about how about cultural narratives, but about how we think about the various deep levels we think about the various deep levels we think about the various deep levels of cultural change. So, I'm eager to of cultural change. So, I'm eager to of cultural change. So, I'm eager to talk again with my friend Michael Keller talk again with my friend Michael Keller talk again with my friend Michael Keller about this book on Gospel B. We're also about this book on Gospel B. We're also about this book on Gospel B. We're also going to discuss another new book going to discuss another new book going to discuss another new book Michael uh wrote, co co-wrote called Michael uh wrote, co co-wrote called Michael uh wrote, co co-wrote called Talking to Kids About Hard Things: Talking to Kids About Hard Things: Talking to Kids About Hard Things: Honest Conversations When Life Gets Honest Conversations When Life Gets Honest Conversations When Life Gets Complicated. Wrote that with Rebecca Complicated. Wrote that with Rebecca Complicated. Wrote that with Rebecca Hannah, published New Growth Press.

Hannah, published New Growth Press. Hannah, published New Growth Press. Michael, welcome to Gospelbound. Michael, welcome to Gospelbound. Michael, welcome to Gospelbound. >> Wow. Thanks for having me, Colin. Thanks >> Wow. Thanks for having me, Colin. Thanks >> Wow. Thanks for having me, Colin. Thanks for that that uh trip down memory lane. for that that uh trip down memory lane. for that that uh trip down memory lane. I I remember that that meeting and you I I remember that that meeting and you I I remember that that meeting and you know just we haven't actually talked know just we haven't actually talked know just we haven't actually talked about this. I I I don't think we have about this. I I I don't think we have about this. I I I don't think we have but I really appreciate when the room but I really appreciate when the room but I really appreciate when the room was filled with all these people. Nobody was filled with all these people. Nobody was filled with all these people. Nobody really knew each other and the pivot really knew each other and the pivot really knew each other and the pivot that you were able to make when people that you were able to make when people that you were able to make when people were like I don't let's let's not do were like I don't let's let's not do were like I don't let's let's not do broad let's go deeper and your humility broad let's go deeper and your humility broad let's go deeper and your humility and ability to say okay and you and uh I and ability to say okay and you and uh I and ability to say okay and you and uh I just thought that was really good just thought that was really good just thought that was really good leadership on your side. So, I'm not leadership on your side. So, I'm not leadership on your side. So, I'm not trying to, you know, stroke your ego or trying to, you know, stroke your ego or trying to, you know, stroke your ego or anything, but I I've I've I've thought anything, but I I've I've I've thought anything, but I I've I've I've thought about that that moment, but we haven't about that that moment, but we haven't about that that moment, but we haven't talked about it. I think it was really talked about it. I think it was really talked about it. I think it was really uh an interesting time when we were uh an interesting time when we were uh an interesting time when we were trying to figure out what is this going trying to figure out what is this going trying to figure out what is this going to be and um where where we go. That's to be and um where where we go. That's to be and um where where we go. That's why you were doing the exercise. And why you were doing the exercise. And why you were doing the exercise. And ironically, even though the exercise ironically, even though the exercise ironically, even though the exercise didn't go well, it actually did go well didn't go well, it actually did go well didn't go well, it actually did go well because it got to what did we want to because it got to what did we want to because it got to what did we want to be? And I and we kind of rallied around be? And I and we kind of rallied around be? And I and we kind of rallied around this idea of how do we do do apologetics this idea of how do we do do apologetics this idea of how do we do do apologetics in uh the modern world? I'm looking at in uh the modern world? I'm looking at in uh the modern world? I'm looking at uh this this computer is is propped up uh this this computer is is propped up uh this this computer is is propped up on our um uh postChristendom apologetics on our um uh postChristendom apologetics on our um uh postChristendom apologetics book. Uh so just excited about all the book. Uh so just excited about all the book. Uh so just excited about all the stuff that we've been doing.

stuff that we've been doing. stuff that we've been doing. >> Well, let's jump right in and talk about >> Well, let's jump right in and talk about >> Well, let's jump right in and talk about the stories we live by. Um people want the stories we live by. Um people want the stories we live by. Um people want to know how the book came about. Uh I I to know how the book came about. Uh I I to know how the book came about. Uh I I know you were talking with your dad know you were talking with your dad know you were talking with your dad about this book even in his his final about this book even in his his final about this book even in his his final days. And I'm wondering did he did he days. And I'm wondering did he did he days. And I'm wondering did he did he see this book and and uh this this work see this book and and uh this this work see this book and and uh this this work that you have been helping to carry on? that you have been helping to carry on? that you have been helping to carry on? Did he see this as a legacy project for Did he see this as a legacy project for Did he see this as a legacy project for himself? himself? himself? >> Yeah, that's a great that's a great >> Yeah, that's a great that's a great >> Yeah, that's a great that's a great question Colin. I mean the original question Colin. I mean the original question Colin. I mean the original original origin of of this book was he original origin of of this book was he original origin of of this book was he came out I think in 2015 or 16 with a came out I think in 2015 or 16 with a came out I think in 2015 or 16 with a book called Making Sense of God which book called Making Sense of God which book called Making Sense of God which was a prequel to the reason for God. But was a prequel to the reason for God. But was a prequel to the reason for God. But when he asked me what I thought I think when he asked me what I thought I think when he asked me what I thought I think there's a benefit of being a son there's a benefit of being a son there's a benefit of being a son sometimes cuz I said I don't like it. I sometimes cuz I said I don't like it. I sometimes cuz I said I don't like it. I said, I thought it was really uh it was said, I thought it was really uh it was said, I thought it was really uh it was it's a good book, but it's very it's a good book, but it's very it's a good book, but it's very philosophical. It's very dense, and I philosophical. It's very dense, and I philosophical. It's very dense, and I feel like the average person is gonna be feel like the average person is gonna be feel like the average person is gonna be too hard to get into. I said, the best too hard to get into. I said, the best too hard to get into. I said, the best some of the best stuff in there is some of the best stuff in there is some of the best stuff in there is buried. It's all this stuff about buried. It's all this stuff about buried. It's all this stuff about cultural narratives and stories that we cultural narratives and stories that we cultural narratives and stories that we live by that are these stories that sit live by that are these stories that sit live by that are these stories that sit around in culture. they're they're more around in culture. they're they're more around in culture. they're they're more caught than taught. That they're they're caught than taught. That they're they're caught than taught. That they're they're not arguments as much as they're uh not arguments as much as they're uh not arguments as much as they're uh imagination moving uh um stories that we imagination moving uh um stories that we imagination moving uh um stories that we that we live by for lack of a better that we live by for lack of a better that we live by for lack of a better phrase. Um and I said, I wish there was phrase. Um and I said, I wish there was phrase. Um and I said, I wish there was a cliffnotes version for that. And he a cliffnotes version for that. And he a cliffnotes version for that. And he said to my surprise, he said, well, said to my surprise, he said, well, said to my surprise, he said, well, let's let's do that project together.

let's let's do that project together. let's let's do that project together. Let's write that together. And yes, he's Let's write that together. And yes, he's Let's write that together. And yes, he's had the a lot of these stories they had the a lot of these stories they had the a lot of these stories they don't they don't come up in five years. don't they don't come up in five years. don't they don't come up in five years. that these are long trends that they that these are long trends that they that these are long trends that they tend our modern stories tend to be tend our modern stories tend to be tend our modern stories tend to be answering premodern stories. They they answering premodern stories. They they answering premodern stories. They they tend to evolve other stories. They've tend to evolve other stories. They've tend to evolve other stories. They've been around and that my father had been been around and that my father had been been around and that my father had been writing about them, but I don't think writing about them, but I don't think writing about them, but I don't think they were highlighted. I don't think they were highlighted. I don't think they were highlighted. I don't think they were front and center. And the goal they were front and center. And the goal they were front and center. And the goal of this book was was to do that. And so of this book was was to do that. And so of this book was was to do that. And so was I I think the the Keller Center for was I I think the the Keller Center for was I I think the the Keller Center for as well has tried to sort of help uh as well has tried to sort of help uh as well has tried to sort of help uh equip people with these sort of un equip people with these sort of un equip people with these sort of un they're not untold, they're told all the they're not untold, they're told all the they're not untold, they're told all the time. They're just they're hidden time. They're just they're hidden time. They're just they're hidden stories that are behind everything stories that are behind everything stories that are behind everything whether you're a Christian or not. They whether you're a Christian or not. They whether you're a Christian or not. They affect us and that we we swin them. It's affect us and that we we swin them. It's affect us and that we we swin them. It's sort of the the air we breathe, so to sort of the the air we breathe, so to sort of the the air we breathe, so to speak. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, you can speak. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, you can speak. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, you can give a chance to explain some of these give a chance to explain some of these give a chance to explain some of these stories, but I just thought, let's Which stories, but I just thought, let's Which stories, but I just thought, let's Which one of these stories do you think that's one of these stories do you think that's one of these stories do you think that's captured [snorts] in this book is most captured [snorts] in this book is most captured [snorts] in this book is most compelling to our to our world today and compelling to our to our world today and compelling to our to our world today and why? Which one of the most compelling?

why? Which one of the most compelling? why? Which one of the most compelling? Um, that's a great question. Uh, there's Um, that's a great question. Uh, there's Um, that's a great question. Uh, there's they all intermix and I think different they all intermix and I think different they all intermix and I think different people probably gravitate to different people probably gravitate to different people probably gravitate to different ones. the the the the highlights are, ones. the the the the highlights are, ones. the the the the highlights are, you know, identity, freedom, power, uh you know, identity, freedom, power, uh you know, identity, freedom, power, uh um happiness, truth, which is also um happiness, truth, which is also um happiness, truth, which is also science, morality, and progress. And science, morality, and progress. And science, morality, and progress. And they work as a mesh because they work as a mesh because they work as a mesh because the identity narrative is sometimes the identity narrative is sometimes the identity narrative is sometimes captured in the phrase you do you or captured in the phrase you do you or captured in the phrase you do you or follow your heart. Look on the inside, follow your heart. Look on the inside, follow your heart. Look on the inside, find out who you are, align the world find out who you are, align the world find out who you are, align the world with that from the outside. But then the with that from the outside. But then the with that from the outside. But then the freedom narrative which is you need to freedom narrative which is you need to freedom narrative which is you need to get freedom so that you do whatever you get freedom so that you do whatever you get freedom so that you do whatever you want when whenever you want with want when whenever you want with want when whenever you want with whomever you want as long as you don't whomever you want as long as you don't whomever you want as long as you don't harm anybody. But what's the reason to harm anybody. But what's the reason to harm anybody. But what's the reason to have that freedom? It's usually to get have that freedom? It's usually to get have that freedom? It's usually to get an ident to to discover your identity to an ident to to discover your identity to an ident to to discover your identity to find your identity. So they they go find your identity. So they they go find your identity. So they they go together but they also are intention. together but they also are intention. together but they also are intention. The power narrative says that everything The power narrative says that everything The power narrative says that everything at the end of the day is about power. at the end of the day is about power. at the end of the day is about power. It's only your power versus my power. It's only your power versus my power. It's only your power versus my power. And that story, which is more a newer And that story, which is more a newer And that story, which is more a newer one, they look at that story looks at one, they look at that story looks at one, they look at that story looks at the identity narrative of you trying to the identity narrative of you trying to the identity narrative of you trying to get your identity as a just a power get your identity as a just a power get your identity as a just a power move. So that's a conflict. But the the move. So that's a conflict. But the the move. So that's a conflict. But the the they they move us to different degrees.

they they move us to different degrees. they they move us to different degrees. Sometimes our own personal story. Hey, I Sometimes our own personal story. Hey, I Sometimes our own personal story. Hey, I was trying to get my identity. I wanted was trying to get my identity. I wanted was trying to get my identity. I wanted to find it in this job. I wanted to find to find it in this job. I wanted to find to find it in this job. I wanted to find it in this person. He or she rejected it in this person. He or she rejected it in this person. He or she rejected me. This industry rejected me. And you me. This industry rejected me. And you me. This industry rejected me. And you know what? It was just their power know what? It was just their power know what? It was just their power versus my power. So you morphed from one versus my power. So you morphed from one versus my power. So you morphed from one uh story to another one, but they're not uh story to another one, but they're not uh story to another one, but they're not cognizant often and they I think that cognizant often and they I think that cognizant often and they I think that and I bring we bring this out in the and I bring we bring this out in the and I bring we bring this out in the book. Every culture has questions that book. Every culture has questions that book. Every culture has questions that um the culture answers for us that we um the culture answers for us that we um the culture answers for us that we don't have to very few people sit around don't have to very few people sit around don't have to very few people sit around and go what's the point of life? Who am and go what's the point of life? Who am and go what's the point of life? Who am I? Why do I exist? What's wrong with the I? Why do I exist? What's wrong with the I? Why do I exist? What's wrong with the world? What will put it right? Very few world? What will put it right? Very few world? What will put it right? Very few people ask that question. You don't have people ask that question. You don't have people ask that question. You don't have to because the stories that we live in to because the stories that we live in to because the stories that we live in have already answered those things that have already answered those things that have already answered those things that we kind of know that we should try to we kind of know that we should try to we kind of know that we should try to live pursue our happiness, life, live pursue our happiness, life, live pursue our happiness, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We should we we kind of know that we We should we we kind of know that we We should we we kind of know that we need to get on the right side of history need to get on the right side of history need to get on the right side of history and and progress in the right direction. and and progress in the right direction. and and progress in the right direction. But I mean I mean Colin, have you seen But I mean I mean Colin, have you seen But I mean I mean Colin, have you seen these and and I mean what are your these and and I mean what are your these and and I mean what are your thoughts on it? thoughts on it? thoughts on it? >> Yeah, I I the one that I come back to >> Yeah, I I the one that I come back to >> Yeah, I I the one that I come back to all the time is are questions related to all the time is are questions related to all the time is are questions related to identity. Um then one of the things that identity. Um then one of the things that identity. Um then one of the things that that Tim had talked about was that that Tim had talked about was that that Tim had talked about was that idolatry was a major focus especially of idolatry was a major focus especially of idolatry was a major focus especially of the 20th century but that this pursuit the 20th century but that this pursuit the 20th century but that this pursuit of identity well it did not start by any of identity well it did not start by any of identity well it did not start by any means in the 20th century definitely means in the 20th century definitely means in the 20th century definitely seems to have been building a momentum seems to have been building a momentum seems to have been building a momentum and I think these stories are part of and I think these stories are part of and I think these stories are part of how we try to concoct and conceive that how we try to concoct and conceive that how we try to concoct and conceive that identity. Um even but even the pursuit

identity. Um even but even the pursuit identity. Um even but even the pursuit itself of identity is one of the is one itself of identity is one of the is one itself of identity is one of the is one of the chief narratives there and of the chief narratives there and of the chief narratives there and specifically the assumption that I specifically the assumption that I specifically the assumption that I cannot form my identity cannot form my identity cannot form my identity from some authority outside of myself. from some authority outside of myself. from some authority outside of myself. It cannot come from religion. It cannot It cannot come from religion. It cannot It cannot come from religion. It cannot come from community. It cannot come from come from community. It cannot come from come from community. It cannot come from my parents. It has to be something that my parents. It has to be something that my parents. It has to be something that comes from within. The irony of course comes from within. The irony of course comes from within. The irony of course is that everybody is doing the same is that everybody is doing the same is that everybody is doing the same thing. So it is a communal venture and thing. So it is a communal venture and thing. So it is a communal venture and as you guys point out in this book as you guys point out in this book as you guys point out in this book because of the nature of individualism because of the nature of individualism because of the nature of individualism being expressive that identity is only being expressive that identity is only being expressive that identity is only recognized in the response of in the recognized in the response of in the recognized in the response of in the affirmation from that community. So it affirmation from that community. So it affirmation from that community. So it doesn't really work but the narrative doesn't really work but the narrative doesn't really work but the narrative remains extremely powerful. Um, so remains extremely powerful. Um, so remains extremely powerful. Um, so that's the one I'm I'm writing some some that's the one I'm I'm writing some some that's the one I'm I'm writing some some sermons right now going through Daniel, sermons right now going through Daniel, sermons right now going through Daniel, going through Esther, and absolutely the going through Esther, and absolutely the going through Esther, and absolutely the identity question uh keeps coming up.

identity question uh keeps coming up. identity question uh keeps coming up. >> And I think what's difficult for if if >> And I think what's difficult for if if >> And I think what's difficult for if if you're a Christian listening to this or you're a Christian listening to this or you're a Christian listening to this or um you know, you're kind of suspicious um you know, you're kind of suspicious um you know, you're kind of suspicious of like culture, you have to realize of like culture, you have to realize of like culture, you have to realize that that that these things are not all positive and these things are not all positive and these things are not all positive and all negative. There there is something all negative. There there is something all negative. There there is something to affirm in all these stories. Uh Chris to affirm in all these stories. Uh Chris to affirm in all these stories. Uh Chris Watkins was going through these cultural Watkins was going through these cultural Watkins was going through these cultural narratives. He says, "You know, Michael, narratives. He says, "You know, Michael, narratives. He says, "You know, Michael, did you notice that all these narratives did you notice that all these narratives did you notice that all these narratives are actually Christian heresies to some are actually Christian heresies to some are actually Christian heresies to some degree?" And I I was like, "No, I degree?" And I I was like, "No, I degree?" And I I was like, "No, I actually never thought of it that way." actually never thought of it that way." actually never thought of it that way." Uh he goes, "Which makes sense though if Uh he goes, "Which makes sense though if Uh he goes, "Which makes sense though if Western culture would is been affected Western culture would is been affected Western culture would is been affected by Judeo-Christian values and and by Judeo-Christian values and and by Judeo-Christian values and and virtues and then it makes sense that virtues and then it makes sense that virtues and then it makes sense that these these stories are aspects of these these stories are aspects of these these stories are aspects of Christianity that maybe have key Christianity that maybe have key Christianity that maybe have key elements have been taken out. But that elements have been taken out. But that elements have been taken out. But that means there's something that we can means there's something that we can means there's something that we can affirm and then something we have to affirm and then something we have to affirm and then something we have to critique and then something we have to critique and then something we have to critique and then something we have to redirect which is what Paul does on in redirect which is what Paul does on in redirect which is what Paul does on in Acts 17. Dan Strange writes about this Acts 17. Dan Strange writes about this Acts 17. Dan Strange writes about this and and mapped it out a lot uh better. and and mapped it out a lot uh better. and and mapped it out a lot uh better. But I I just think it's really important But I I just think it's really important But I I just think it's really important for us to not we want to think in for us to not we want to think in for us to not we want to think in binaries all think is all good all bad binaries all think is all good all bad binaries all think is all good all bad and I think that that's unhelpful and and I think that that's unhelpful and and I think that that's unhelpful and apologetically apologetically apologetically if you are talking to uh somebody who's if you are talking to uh somebody who's if you are talking to uh somebody who's doesn't believe or whatnot. I think it's doesn't believe or whatnot. I think it's doesn't believe or whatnot. I think it's important for people to realize that why important for people to realize that why important for people to realize that why aren't they? It's because these stories aren't they? It's because these stories aren't they? It's because these stories are working in their lives to some are working in their lives to some are working in their lives to some degree because they've answered the degree because they've answered the degree because they've answered the questions that they need. But then I questions that they need. But then I questions that they need. But then I think it's a it's a helpful move when think it's a it's a helpful move when think it's a it's a helpful move when you if I go to my kids and say you if I go to my kids and say you if I go to my kids and say everything you're doing is wrong. I just everything you're doing is wrong. I just everything you're doing is wrong. I just think you already you you lose the think you already you you lose the think you already you you lose the narrative when you say, "Hey, actually

narrative when you say, "Hey, actually narrative when you say, "Hey, actually you you're what you're going for. I get you you're what you're going for. I get you you're what you're going for. I get I see why you want an identity. I see I see why you want an identity. I see I see why you want an identity. I see why you want freedom. There's good why you want freedom. There's good why you want freedom. There's good aspects of these things, but here's aspects of these things, but here's aspects of these things, but here's where they're being misapplied, misused. where they're being misapplied, misused. where they're being misapplied, misused. I think there's a better conversation I think there's a better conversation I think there's a better conversation and potential for for change in and potential for for change in and potential for for change in somebody's life in that sense. somebody's life in that sense. somebody's life in that sense. >> Yeah, that's a great perspective. Um, >> Yeah, that's a great perspective. Um, >> Yeah, that's a great perspective. Um, you can see that that identity you can see that that identity you can see that that identity narrative, that identity question only narrative, that identity question only narrative, that identity question only makes sense in a world after the first makes sense in a world after the first makes sense in a world after the first advent, after the coming of Christ advent, after the coming of Christ advent, after the coming of Christ because um you would have had that because um you would have had that because um you would have had that almost exclusively or exclusively almost exclusively or exclusively almost exclusively or exclusively external identity uh group communal external identity uh group communal external identity uh group communal identity um and also the mixing and identity um and also the mixing and identity um and also the mixing and matching of your religion, from your matching of your religion, from your matching of your religion, from your culture, from your politics and your culture, from your politics and your culture, from your politics and your individual perspective. Those are individual perspective. Those are individual perspective. Those are concepts introduced by Christianity. So concepts introduced by Christianity. So concepts introduced by Christianity. So absolutely we're only having this absolutely we're only having this absolutely we're only having this conversation about expressive conversation about expressive conversation about expressive individualism, about identity, about the individualism, about identity, about the individualism, about identity, about the power of those narratives in a world power of those narratives in a world power of those narratives in a world that has been shaped by Christianity, that has been shaped by Christianity, that has been shaped by Christianity, but has taken it beyond what was but has taken it beyond what was but has taken it beyond what was intended originally biblically and what intended originally biblically and what intended originally biblically and what Jesus was teaching into a place like you Jesus was teaching into a place like you Jesus was teaching into a place like you said, it becomes uh comes a heresy said, it becomes uh comes a heresy said, it becomes uh comes a heresy there.

there. there. >> We bring this up in the in the book. I I >> We bring this up in the in the book. I I >> We bring this up in the in the book. I I think I mentioned a story that my father think I mentioned a story that my father think I mentioned a story that my father mentioned which was I think it was his mentioned which was I think it was his mentioned which was I think it was his great-grandfather so it be my great great-grandfather so it be my great great-grandfather so it be my great greatgrandfather he was in outside of greatgrandfather he was in outside of greatgrandfather he was in outside of Naples Italy and his father was a potter Naples Italy and his father was a potter Naples Italy and his father was a potter and his father was a potter and every and his father was a potter and every and his father was a potter and every and if you try to go to any other town and if you try to go to any other town and if you try to go to any other town they would have said no no no we know they would have said no no no we know they would have said no no no we know you you're you have to be a potter and you you're you have to be a potter and you you're you have to be a potter and so he was given a couple options he's so he was given a couple options he's so he was given a couple options he's like you can be a potter when you grow like you can be a potter when you grow like you can be a potter when you grow up you can go to the monastery you can up you can go to the monastery you can up you can go to the monastery you can go into the army or you can go to go into the army or you can go to go into the army or you can go to America go to America and he chose he America go to America and he chose he America go to America and he chose he chose number four he went to America so chose number four he went to America so chose number four he went to America so why because there was a great why because there was a great why because there was a great restriction restriction restriction when the world told you what who you when the world told you what who you when the world told you what who you were have had to be there's problems were have had to be there's problems were have had to be there's problems with that but I think what we're seeing with that but I think what we're seeing with that but I think what we're seeing as you pointed out Colin with you what as you pointed out Colin with you what as you pointed out Colin with you what what you can call expressive what you can call expressive what you can call expressive individualism is there's great problems individualism is there's great problems individualism is there's great problems when when when it has to be internally focused because it has to be internally focused because it has to be internally focused because just quick list uh it's a new form of of just quick list uh it's a new form of of just quick list uh it's a new form of of performance performance performance you have to keep finding who the real you have to keep finding who the real you have to keep finding who the real you is which version is it? It's you is which version is it? It's you is which version is it? It's incoherent to some degree. Is it the Is incoherent to some degree. Is it the Is incoherent to some degree. Is it the Is it Michael Keller who wants a peanut it Michael Keller who wants a peanut it Michael Keller who wants a peanut butter brownie? Is it Michael Keller who butter brownie? Is it Michael Keller who butter brownie? Is it Michael Keller who wants uh to work out which who's the wants uh to work out which who's the wants uh to work out which who's the real Michael Keller? It's too fragile.

real Michael Keller? It's too fragile. real Michael Keller? It's too fragile. It's inconsistent. It hides its moral It's inconsistent. It hides its moral It's inconsistent. It hides its moral framework because there's still a way framework because there's still a way framework because there's still a way that you evaluate uh your identities that you evaluate uh your identities that you evaluate uh your identities that you come up with. So, we talk about that you come up with. So, we talk about that you come up with. So, we talk about all that in the book, but I I I think all that in the book, but I I I think all that in the book, but I I I think it's just important for the listener to it's just important for the listener to it's just important for the listener to hear that it's not just all we identity hear that it's not just all we identity hear that it's not just all we identity is important. You need one. There's good is important. You need one. There's good is important. You need one. There's good things about an identity. You need one things about an identity. You need one things about an identity. You need one that that's internally and externally that that's internally and externally that that's internally and externally uh consistent. But we try to make the uh consistent. But we try to make the uh consistent. But we try to make the argument there's a true and better story argument there's a true and better story argument there's a true and better story that in both externally and internally that in both externally and internally that in both externally and internally when identity is something you either when identity is something you either when identity is something you either have to achieve or has been placed on have to achieve or has been placed on have to achieve or has been placed on you from from someone else. Those are you from from someone else. Those are you from from someone else. Those are those both do violence. What better those both do violence. What better those both do violence. What better identity than being a son or daughter of identity than being a son or daughter of identity than being a son or daughter of the most high God that can never be the most high God that can never be the most high God that can never be taken from you and doesn't have to be taken from you and doesn't have to be taken from you and doesn't have to be earned and um doesn't do violence to earned and um doesn't do violence to earned and um doesn't do violence to your who you are. So that's that's your who you are. So that's that's your who you are. So that's that's that's the idea. But what are your that's the idea. But what are your that's the idea. But what are your thoughts? thoughts? thoughts? >> Yeah. Well, just keep asking my my >> Yeah. Well, just keep asking my my >> Yeah. Well, just keep asking my my questions here. We're talking stories we questions here. We're talking stories we questions here. We're talking stories we live by, seven cultural myths that fail live by, seven cultural myths that fail live by, seven cultural myths that fail us and story that never will. Um, I us and story that never will. Um, I us and story that never will. Um, I don't know that I've ever thought about don't know that I've ever thought about don't know that I've ever thought about this question about my own books, this question about my own books, this question about my own books, Michael, but it came up as I was Michael, but it came up as I was Michael, but it came up as I was thinking about yours. If your book is thinking about yours. If your book is thinking about yours. If your book is successful, successful, successful, what would change in the church? What what would change in the church? What what would change in the church? What would look differently in the world?

would look differently in the world? would look differently in the world? What do you pray for? You know, we as What do you pray for? You know, we as What do you pray for? You know, we as authors, we want our books to be sold. authors, we want our books to be sold. authors, we want our books to be sold. Um, we hope that the investment of our Um, we hope that the investment of our Um, we hope that the investment of our time pays off for our family in time pays off for our family in time pays off for our family in different ways. Of course, um, all different ways. Of course, um, all different ways. Of course, um, all authors care about that. But we do this authors care about that. But we do this authors care about that. But we do this because we want to make a difference. So because we want to make a difference. So because we want to make a difference. So what difference do you hope you pray what difference do you hope you pray what difference do you hope you pray that this book would make? What would that this book would make? What would that this book would make? What would what would change? what would change? what would change? >> Well, the first part of the question, >> Well, the first part of the question, >> Well, the first part of the question, it's a great I've never I've never been it's a great I've never I've never been it's a great I've never I've never been asked that question and it's a great asked that question and it's a great asked that question and it's a great question, Colin. I I probably should question, Colin. I I probably should question, Colin. I I probably should have done a better job of thinking about have done a better job of thinking about have done a better job of thinking about that beforehand because my only answer that beforehand because my only answer that beforehand because my only answer was like dad and I talked about doing was like dad and I talked about doing was like dad and I talked about doing it. He was drawing um the outlines in it. He was drawing um the outlines in it. He was drawing um the outlines in his hospital bed. I have pictures uh of his hospital bed. I have pictures uh of his hospital bed. I have pictures uh of where you know those those white boards where you know those those white boards where you know those those white boards in in your hospital room. He was in in your hospital room. He was in in your hospital room. He was actually outlining this book uh uh there actually outlining this book uh uh there actually outlining this book uh uh there and I I felt beholden to try to get it and I I felt beholden to try to get it and I I felt beholden to try to get it out as soon as possible because cultural out as soon as possible because cultural out as soon as possible because cultural stories change. I I just felt the need stories change. I I just felt the need stories change. I I just felt the need to do that. So that's why I wrote the to do that. So that's why I wrote the to do that. So that's why I wrote the book as first book I've written before.

book as first book I've written before. book as first book I've written before. Uh I use the lens of my own grief, my Uh I use the lens of my own grief, my Uh I use the lens of my own grief, my own personal story. So I think it's own personal story. So I think it's own personal story. So I think it's unique in that sense because what better unique in that sense because what better unique in that sense because what better way to talk about stories instead of it way to talk about stories instead of it way to talk about stories instead of it being if the goal was to to bring this being if the goal was to to bring this being if the goal was to to bring this down so that we can understand it and down so that we can understand it and down so that we can understand it and not just have it buried in a bunch of not just have it buried in a bunch of not just have it buried in a bunch of philosophy. philosophy. philosophy. That was the goal. But I guess the That was the goal. But I guess the That was the goal. But I guess the second half, what would my hope be? I second half, what would my hope be? I second half, what would my hope be? I would hope it would help us a change would hope it would help us a change would hope it would help us a change maybe how we talk about maybe how we talk about maybe how we talk about uh how we try to meet people who aren't uh how we try to meet people who aren't uh how we try to meet people who aren't believers. Uh a lot of times people believers. Uh a lot of times people believers. Uh a lot of times people aren't even seeking because they don't aren't even seeking because they don't aren't even seeking because they don't need to. But when we can kind of maybe need to. But when we can kind of maybe need to. But when we can kind of maybe come out come at it from a story lens come out come at it from a story lens come out come at it from a story lens these days people aren't asking these days people aren't asking these days people aren't asking questions like is Christianity true? Not questions like is Christianity true? Not questions like is Christianity true? Not as much. They're asking is it good? And as much. They're asking is it good? And as much. They're asking is it good? And that's a story that that there that's that's a story that that there that's that's a story that that there that's actually helpful because now you can actually helpful because now you can actually helpful because now you can evaluate which story is a better story evaluate which story is a better story evaluate which story is a better story and which one explains my experiences and which one explains my experiences and which one explains my experiences better. I hope it helps us change how we better. I hope it helps us change how we better. I hope it helps us change how we talk about faith and um culture talk about faith and um culture talk about faith and um culture narratives. A and then B, hopefully it's narratives. A and then B, hopefully it's narratives. A and then B, hopefully it's we can use it as an evaluative lens for we can use it as an evaluative lens for we can use it as an evaluative lens for ourselves. I I don't think we realize, ourselves. I I don't think we realize, ourselves. I I don't think we realize, particularly people inside the church, particularly people inside the church, particularly people inside the church, how much they're beholdened by these how much they're beholdened by these how much they're beholdened by these stories. I I I I don't know if I talked stories. I I I I don't know if I talked stories. I I I I don't know if I talked to you about this, but to you about this, but to you about this, but sometimes in the Christian subculture, sometimes in the Christian subculture, sometimes in the Christian subculture, people throw around phrases like, "I people throw around phrases like, "I people throw around phrases like, "I think God wants me to do dot dot dot. I think God wants me to do dot dot dot. I think God wants me to do dot dot dot. I think God wants me to do this." That think God wants me to do this." That think God wants me to do this." That there's a huge assumption in that there's a huge assumption in that there's a huge assumption in that statement that there that you can get in statement that there that you can get in statement that there that you can get in touch. Exactly.

touch. Exactly. touch. Exactly. older Christians, Puritans and whatn not older Christians, Puritans and whatn not older Christians, Puritans and whatn not would be very skeptical that they could would be very skeptical that they could would be very skeptical that they could actually if they heard something or they actually if they heard something or they actually if they heard something or they felt something, how do you know it's not felt something, how do you know it's not felt something, how do you know it's not Satan? How do you know it's not their Satan? How do you know it's not their Satan? How do you know it's not their own corrupt heart? How do you know? But own corrupt heart? How do you know? But own corrupt heart? How do you know? But there's this this sort of common sense there's this this sort of common sense there's this this sort of common sense of because I think of the identity and of because I think of the identity and of because I think of the identity and freedom narratives, I think we feel very freedom narratives, I think we feel very freedom narratives, I think we feel very good of assessing what God wants for our good of assessing what God wants for our good of assessing what God wants for our lives. And I, you know, maybe if we lives. And I, you know, maybe if we lives. And I, you know, maybe if we looked at these stories better, we'd go, looked at these stories better, we'd go, looked at these stories better, we'd go, may maybe I've absorbed this in an in an may maybe I've absorbed this in an in an may maybe I've absorbed this in an in an area that maybe I need to evaluate more area that maybe I need to evaluate more area that maybe I need to evaluate more of. I I don't know. Those would be my of. I I don't know. Those would be my of. I I don't know. Those would be my what? You've read the book. What do you what? You've read the book. What do you what? You've read the book. What do you think? [laughter] think? [laughter] think? [laughter] I that's absolutely the case. And it it I that's absolutely the case. And it it I that's absolutely the case. And it it carries on with our making sense of us carries on with our making sense of us carries on with our making sense of us curriculum. The belief that when you're curriculum. The belief that when you're curriculum. The belief that when you're doing apologetics now, you're doing this doing apologetics now, you're doing this doing apologetics now, you're doing this also for the church, not just for also for the church, not just for also for the church, not just for non-Christians. When you're doing non-Christians. When you're doing non-Christians. When you're doing evangelism, you're also edifying. evangelism, you're also edifying. evangelism, you're also edifying. Something that your dad talked about all Something that your dad talked about all Something that your dad talked about all the time. And so when we're talking the time. And so when we're talking the time. And so when we're talking about these cultural narratives, yes, it about these cultural narratives, yes, it about these cultural narratives, yes, it is an evangelistic strategy. Yes, it is is an evangelistic strategy. Yes, it is is an evangelistic strategy. Yes, it is an apologetics training, but it's also an apologetics training, but it's also an apologetics training, but it's also just basic disciplehip to recognize that just basic disciplehip to recognize that just basic disciplehip to recognize that even as mature Christians, these even as mature Christians, these even as mature Christians, these cultural narratives are so incredibly cultural narratives are so incredibly cultural narratives are so incredibly powerful that we're swept up in them.

powerful that we're swept up in them. powerful that we're swept up in them. And they're all the more powerful And they're all the more powerful And they're all the more powerful because we don't know that we are. And because we don't know that we are. And because we don't know that we are. And this is the making sense uh making this is the making sense uh making this is the making sense uh making making sense of us book that the making sense of us book that the making sense of us book that the cosigner put out. It's great uh high cosigner put out. It's great uh high cosigner put out. It's great uh high production values, great uh commentary, production values, great uh commentary, production values, great uh commentary, 105 minute videos on each one of these. 105 minute videos on each one of these. 105 minute videos on each one of these. Super helpful uh if if you're more of a Super helpful uh if if you're more of a Super helpful uh if if you're more of a visual person to kind of go through this visual person to kind of go through this visual person to kind of go through this stuff. Yeah, they're definitely stuff. Yeah, they're definitely stuff. Yeah, they're definitely companions that are trying to do some companions that are trying to do some companions that are trying to do some similar things under the same uh broad similar things under the same uh broad similar things under the same uh broad um overview in different and um overview in different and um overview in different and complimentary complimentary ways. Um I'm complimentary complimentary ways. Um I'm complimentary complimentary ways. Um I'm wondering, Michael, what else is in your wondering, Michael, what else is in your wondering, Michael, what else is in your dad's notes? [laughter] dad's notes? [laughter] dad's notes? [laughter] Can we expect more collaborative works? Can we expect more collaborative works? Can we expect more collaborative works? What what's the future hold here? What What what's the future hold here? What What what's the future hold here? What are you thinking of next? Well, there are you thinking of next? Well, there are you thinking of next? Well, there his, you know, my father being who he his, you know, my father being who he his, you know, my father being who he was, uh, listed out 99 books that he was, uh, listed out 99 books that he was, uh, listed out 99 books that he felt that we could make with his felt that we could make with his felt that we could make with his material. Yeah, you you laugh. material. Yeah, you you laugh. material. Yeah, you you laugh. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Well, yeah, I know. I think he would >> Well, yeah, I know. I think he would >> Well, yeah, I know. I think he would thought it'd be funny to to like leave thought it'd be funny to to like leave thought it'd be funny to to like leave 9900, but um he didn't want us making 9900, but um he didn't want us making 9900, but um he didn't want us making new material, but there's so much old new material, but there's so much old new material, but there's so much old material that's out there. I I think we material that's out there. I I think we material that's out there. I I think we put out the gospel in life put out the gospel in life put out the gospel in life uh website. There's a the gospel in life uh website. There's a the gospel in life uh website. There's a the gospel in life publishes my father's sermons but they publishes my father's sermons but they publishes my father's sermons but they also have uh articles and we found an also have uh articles and we found an also have uh articles and we found an article that where he was working on on article that where he was working on on article that where he was working on on about political ideologies and how uh about political ideologies and how uh about political ideologies and how uh each one what they know how which one

each one what they know how which one each one what they know how which one each what does each one idolize which each what does each one idolize which each what does each one idolize which one does each one demonize and we put it one does each one demonize and we put it one does each one demonize and we put it on the website. So there's there's just on the website. So there's there's just on the website. So there's there's just over a 100,000 different files on his over a 100,000 different files on his over a 100,000 different files on his computer. Um the man really was writing computer. Um the man really was writing computer. Um the man really was writing like he was running out of time as he like he was running out of time as he like he was running out of time as he was. And uh so there's stuff I I I don't was. And uh so there's stuff I I I don't was. And uh so there's stuff I I I don't think the there's nothing in the works think the there's nothing in the works think the there's nothing in the works other than these this book uh at the other than these this book uh at the other than these this book uh at the moment, but I I think right now my my moment, but I I think right now my my moment, but I I think right now my my family's concentrating on other family's concentrating on other family's concentrating on other projects. But uh yeah, there's there's projects. But uh yeah, there's there's projects. But uh yeah, there's there's there's stuff more than enough stuff to there's stuff more than enough stuff to there's stuff more than enough stuff to kind of keep us all interested over the kind of keep us all interested over the kind of keep us all interested over the years. I think part of it is just a years. I think part of it is just a years. I think part of it is just a window into his writing and his thinking window into his writing and his thinking window into his writing and his thinking process. um the books that he turned out process. um the books that he turned out process. um the books that he turned out from 2008 until basically 2022 from 2008 until basically 2022 from 2008 until basically 2022 that came out and I I continue to say I that came out and I I continue to say I that came out and I I continue to say I don't know don't know don't know who else in Christian history in some who else in Christian history in some who else in Christian history in some ways produced that many different kinds ways produced that many different kinds ways produced that many different kinds of works in that compressed period of of works in that compressed period of of works in that compressed period of time that had such wide reach and time that had such wide reach and time that had such wide reach and enduring legacy. But part of it's enduring legacy. But part of it's enduring legacy. But part of it's because he had been doing so much because he had been doing so much because he had been doing so much preparatory work including the sermons preparatory work including the sermons preparatory work including the sermons of course but this kind of writing and of course but this kind of writing and of course but this kind of writing and research and collaboration or or um just research and collaboration or or um just research and collaboration or or um just collection research that he would do. So collection research that he would do. So collection research that he would do. So no surprise that long before the books no surprise that long before the books no surprise that long before the books existed he would have had a lot of existed he would have had a lot of existed he would have had a lot of things in process. Um no doubt. Um, things in process. Um no doubt. Um, things in process. Um no doubt. Um, another question and it's it's one that

another question and it's it's one that another question and it's it's one that I of course get a lot of time just I of course get a lot of time just I of course get a lot of time just because of of my own work of course, but because of of my own work of course, but because of of my own work of course, but it's more personal for you. Um, for it's more personal for you. Um, for it's more personal for you. Um, for obvious reasons. How do you take ongoing obvious reasons. How do you take ongoing obvious reasons. How do you take ongoing criticism of your dad? It doesn't um criticism of your dad? It doesn't um criticism of your dad? It doesn't um doesn't seem to go away. Uh, I do wonder doesn't seem to go away. Uh, I do wonder doesn't seem to go away. Uh, I do wonder sometimes why he seems to be so singled sometimes why he seems to be so singled sometimes why he seems to be so singled out, but I do think it's also a out, but I do think it's also a out, but I do think it's also a testament to his influence. I think it's testament to his influence. I think it's testament to his influence. I think it's also a testament to his integrity and also a testament to his integrity and also a testament to his integrity and his in his godliness. Um, I just wonder his in his godliness. Um, I just wonder his in his godliness. Um, I just wonder how you take it as a son. how you take it as a son. how you take it as a son. >> Um, yeah. Good. Yeah. You know, he's a >> Um, yeah. Good. Yeah. You know, he's a >> Um, yeah. Good. Yeah. You know, he's a public figure. He's written publicly. public figure. He's written publicly. public figure. He's written publicly. Uh, and now it's it's a shame sometimes Uh, and now it's it's a shame sometimes Uh, and now it's it's a shame sometimes that I've thought about this. A lot of that I've thought about this. A lot of that I've thought about this. A lot of times some of the criticisms you're times some of the criticisms you're times some of the criticisms you're like, oh, you know, dad would have been like, oh, you know, dad would have been like, oh, you know, dad would have been able to answer that, but he's not here able to answer that, but he's not here able to answer that, but he's not here with us anymore. So now his he's left us with us anymore. So now his he's left us with us anymore. So now his he's left us enough enough works, his body of work, enough enough works, his body of work, enough enough works, his body of work, his sermon um corpus, his sermon um corpus, his sermon um corpus, you know, over whatever it is, 1600 you know, over whatever it is, 1600 you know, over whatever it is, 1600 sermons, sermons, sermons, um curriculum stuff. I think his work um curriculum stuff. I think his work um curriculum stuff. I think his work can answer almost all the objections can answer almost all the objections can answer almost all the objections that people have if they if they go that people have if they if they go that people have if they if they go through it. So, he's just gonna have to through it. So, he's just gonna have to through it. So, he's just gonna have to be, you know, I'm an academic to the be, you know, I'm an academic to the be, you know, I'm an academic to the degree that uh as a, you know, as a degree that uh as a, you know, as a degree that uh as a, you know, as a student, I think that people will have student, I think that people will have student, I think that people will have to evaluate him in that kind of circle to evaluate him in that kind of circle to evaluate him in that kind of circle in space. So, if you're talking about in space. So, if you're talking about in space. So, if you're talking about the kind of just online jabs that people the kind of just online jabs that people the kind of just online jabs that people make, I mean, that's that's the what's make, I mean, that's that's the what's make, I mean, that's that's the what's it called? That's the it called? That's the it called? That's the uh online that's the world. But as but

uh online that's the world. But as but uh online that's the world. But as but when you have critical scholarship that when you have critical scholarship that when you have critical scholarship that wants to look over his stuff, that's wants to look over his stuff, that's wants to look over his stuff, that's going to happen. And um I'm able to going to happen. And um I'm able to going to happen. And um I'm able to remove the man as who he was for me as remove the man as who he was for me as remove the man as who he was for me as my father away from his ideas uh that my father away from his ideas uh that my father away from his ideas uh that have to be you know way up under the have to be you know way up under the have to be you know way up under the scrutiny of of history and that's going scrutiny of of history and that's going scrutiny of of history and that's going to happen. It's going to have to happen. to happen. It's going to have to happen. to happen. It's going to have to happen. Um [clears throat] so we'll see. Um [clears throat] so we'll see. Um [clears throat] so we'll see. >> So just it doesn't doesn't personally >> So just it doesn't doesn't personally >> So just it doesn't doesn't personally affect you. affect you. affect you. >> I mean other than the fact that some if >> I mean other than the fact that some if >> I mean other than the fact that some if I read something I'm like oh I have I I read something I'm like oh I have I I read something I'm like oh I have I could answer that but it's not being could answer that but it's not being could answer that but it's not being asked of me. It's asked of of of dad. asked of me. It's asked of of of dad. asked of me. It's asked of of of dad. So, uh, people will have to go to his So, uh, people will have to go to his So, uh, people will have to go to his work to kind of get those answers. work to kind of get those answers. work to kind of get those answers. >> Well, I I do appreciate the work that he >> Well, I I do appreciate the work that he >> Well, I I do appreciate the work that he did toward the end of his life to did toward the end of his life to did toward the end of his life to anticipate some of those and to help anticipate some of those and to help anticipate some of those and to help establish um a record of of that. And establish um a record of of that. And establish um a record of of that. And again, I most of the time I see again, I most of the time I see again, I most of the time I see something, I think, oh, I guess they something, I think, oh, I guess they something, I think, oh, I guess they just haven't read this or I guess they just haven't read this or I guess they just haven't read this or I guess they just haven't listened to this. just haven't listened to this. just haven't listened to this. >> Yeah. Well, come on. You and I know this >> Yeah. Well, come on. You and I know this >> Yeah. Well, come on. You and I know this for myself, too. I think when you for myself, too. I think when you for myself, too. I think when you sometimes it's easier to come up with a sometimes it's easier to come up with a sometimes it's easier to come up with a straw man. Sometimes it's because you straw man. Sometimes it's because you straw man. Sometimes it's because you haven't looked at it yourself. Sometimes haven't looked at it yourself. Sometimes haven't looked at it yourself. Sometimes because there's just real serious because there's just real serious because there's just real serious disagreement and you just going to have disagreement and you just going to have disagreement and you just going to have to agree to disagree with the people to agree to disagree with the people to agree to disagree with the people that you interlock with. So, but some of that you interlock with. So, but some of that you interlock with. So, but some of the criticisms are just kind of, you the criticisms are just kind of, you the criticisms are just kind of, you know, the whole the the third way stuff.

know, the whole the the third way stuff. know, the whole the the third way stuff. I remember dad having some funny I remember dad having some funny I remember dad having some funny critique about that going, "Well, hold critique about that going, "Well, hold critique about that going, "Well, hold on. And if you're unless you're the on. And if you're unless you're the on. And if you're unless you're the complete actual polar person like on the complete actual polar person like on the complete actual polar person like on the on an issue then you're somewhere you're on an issue then you're somewhere you're on an issue then you're somewhere you're somewhere in the middle there. But then somewhere in the middle there. But then somewhere in the middle there. But then his he tried really hard to show this his he tried really hard to show this his he tried really hard to show this wasn't a middle way. wasn't a middle way. wasn't a middle way. Chris Watkins had a better term for it Chris Watkins had a better term for it Chris Watkins had a better term for it diagonalization that his point was the diagonalization that his point was the diagonalization that his point was the Christianity Jesus combines things that Christianity Jesus combines things that Christianity Jesus combines things that are not on the same spectrum in profound are not on the same spectrum in profound are not on the same spectrum in profound and different ways. They're and different ways. They're and different ways. They're diagonalized. they're off the spectrum. diagonalized. they're off the spectrum. diagonalized. they're off the spectrum. So third way wasn't in the middle way. So third way wasn't in the middle way. So third way wasn't in the middle way. Third way was outside of our normal ways Third way was outside of our normal ways Third way was outside of our normal ways of thinking things. But when you want to of thinking things. But when you want to of thinking things. But when you want to kind of come up with a characture of a kind of come up with a characture of a kind of come up with a characture of a person, you you can do that. But I think person, you you can do that. But I think person, you you can do that. But I think when you in an academic world, you when you in an academic world, you when you in an academic world, you study, you see what his his responses study, you see what his his responses study, you see what his his responses are to those things, you go, "Oh, okay. are to those things, you go, "Oh, okay. are to those things, you go, "Oh, okay. He had an answer for that stuff." One He had an answer for that stuff." One He had an answer for that stuff." One more question here and then we'll turn more question here and then we'll turn more question here and then we'll turn to talking to kids about hard things. to talking to kids about hard things. to talking to kids about hard things. I'm wondering, Michael, what did you I'm wondering, Michael, what did you I'm wondering, Michael, what did you learn about church planting from doing learn about church planting from doing learn about church planting from doing it yourself that you did not even learn it yourself that you did not even learn it yourself that you did not even learn growing up and you didn't learn from growing up and you didn't learn from growing up and you didn't learn from your dad? Well, I want to be clear. We your dad? Well, I want to be clear. We your dad? Well, I want to be clear. We uh we planted our church about 10 it'll uh we planted our church about 10 it'll uh we planted our church about 10 it'll be it'll be 10 years in the in the be it'll be 10 years in the in the be it'll be 10 years in the in the spring and spring and spring and there's scratch church planting and then there's scratch church planting and then there's scratch church planting and then what we did which was we hive church what we did which was we hive church what we did which was we hive church planted and and I think there's a planted and and I think there's a planted and and I think there's a distinction. I I want to give a shout distinction. I I want to give a shout distinction. I I want to give a shout out to church planters who scratch plant out to church planters who scratch plant out to church planters who scratch plant this. It's much more difficult. We this. It's much more difficult. We this. It's much more difficult. We planted a uh site out of out of redeemer planted a uh site out of out of redeemer planted a uh site out of out of redeemer west side uh that came out. We had

west side uh that came out. We had west side uh that came out. We had funding. We had people Yes. within a funding. We had people Yes. within a funding. We had people Yes. within a year 75% of people that we pulled were year 75% of people that we pulled were year 75% of people that we pulled were new to the church which is you know if new to the church which is you know if new to the church which is you know if you read center church if you read some you read center church if you read some you read center church if you read some other any actually people who write on other any actually people who write on other any actually people who write on church planting that's actually what church planting that's actually what church planting that's actually what happens is churches are one of the best happens is churches are one of the best happens is churches are one of the best new churches are one of the best places new churches are one of the best places new churches are one of the best places to reach new people don't nobody to reach new people don't nobody to reach new people don't nobody believes it until they actually do it believes it until they actually do it believes it until they actually do it and then you then you do the numbers and then you then you do the numbers and then you then you do the numbers you're like oh cuz you think oh I'm just you're like oh cuz you think oh I'm just you're like oh cuz you think oh I'm just we're just slicing up the pie into we're just slicing up the pie into we're just slicing up the pie into smaller spaces uh that's hasn't been my smaller spaces uh that's hasn't been my smaller spaces uh that's hasn't been my experience So, I've learned that experience So, I've learned that experience So, I've learned that until you actually do it, it's hard to until you actually do it, it's hard to until you actually do it, it's hard to actually see the fruit of it. But, um, actually see the fruit of it. But, um, actually see the fruit of it. But, um, we redeemer, people don't know this, but we redeemer, people don't know this, but we redeemer, people don't know this, but when, uh, dad was around, redeemer was a when, uh, dad was around, redeemer was a when, uh, dad was around, redeemer was a set number and a set amount of of money set number and a set amount of of money set number and a set amount of of money that came in every year. Um, we've far that came in every year. Um, we've far that came in every year. Um, we've far surpassed the, uh, it was three surpassed the, uh, it was three surpassed the, uh, it was three redeemers. Now, we're six redeemers, redeemers. Now, we're six redeemers, redeemers. Now, we're six redeemers, moving on to more and more and more. and moving on to more and more and more. and moving on to more and more and more. and in this network. So, we're meeting more in this network. So, we're meeting more in this network. So, we're meeting more people and more um doing more work than people and more um doing more work than people and more um doing more work than before and it's just expanding and we before and it's just expanding and we before and it's just expanding and we don't need it. It doesn't have to be don't need it. It doesn't have to be don't need it. It doesn't have to be known as like one redeemer, but it's known as like one redeemer, but it's known as like one redeemer, but it's it's I think it's been effective and it's I think it's been effective and it's I think it's been effective and it's still going and that was sort of it's still going and that was sort of it's still going and that was sort of dad's vision. Why why leave one mega dad's vision. Why why leave one mega dad's vision. Why why leave one mega church when you can actually break these church when you can actually break these church when you can actually break these things up and they can all continue and things up and they can all continue and things up and they can all continue and replicate and keep doing what they're replicate and keep doing what they're replicate and keep doing what they're doing? So, um I don't know if I answered

doing? So, um I don't know if I answered doing? So, um I don't know if I answered your question there. What I mean, your question there. What I mean, your question there. What I mean, >> well, that's not a you're looking at it >> well, that's not a you're looking at it >> well, that's not a you're looking at it from the outside. What are your from the outside. What are your from the outside. What are your thoughts? thoughts? thoughts? >> Well, that is not an easy legacy to pull >> Well, that is not an easy legacy to pull >> Well, that is not an easy legacy to pull off. Um and especially not under the off. Um and especially not under the off. Um and especially not under the conditions in New York if we're only conditions in New York if we're only conditions in New York if we're only looking at say the cost of real estate. looking at say the cost of real estate. looking at say the cost of real estate. Um, so what Redeemer was able to do, Um, so what Redeemer was able to do, Um, so what Redeemer was able to do, your dad's vision, other leaders vision your dad's vision, other leaders vision your dad's vision, other leaders vision at Redeemer of being able to anticipate at Redeemer of being able to anticipate at Redeemer of being able to anticipate not only the the missional reach that not only the the missional reach that not only the the missional reach that could come from breaking up in these could come from breaking up in these could come from breaking up in these different areas, but then also the way different areas, but then also the way different areas, but then also the way that that would enable the church to that that would enable the church to that that would enable the church to move on from Tim's voice in particular, move on from Tim's voice in particular, move on from Tim's voice in particular, but then also still being able to help but then also still being able to help but then also still being able to help lay the groundwork for stable buildings, lay the groundwork for stable buildings, lay the groundwork for stable buildings, two of them so far at least. um on the two of them so far at least. um on the two of them so far at least. um on the east side and the west side east side and the west side east side and the west side >> and we're getting a building coming on >> and we're getting a building coming on >> and we're getting a building coming on in uh a third one and there's there's in uh a third one and there's there's in uh a third one and there's there's been more cool stuff that's still been more cool stuff that's still been more cool stuff that's still happening. happening. happening. >> So that's that's that's amazing and I of >> So that's that's that's amazing and I of >> So that's that's that's amazing and I of course when I was working on the book course when I was working on the book course when I was working on the book that was in the middle of really really that was in the middle of really really that was in the middle of really really of co and I remember looking back and of of co and I remember looking back and of of co and I remember looking back and of course I think the immediate years after course I think the immediate years after course I think the immediate years after um Tim's retirement were difficult for um Tim's retirement were difficult for um Tim's retirement were difficult for Redeemer. It was a hard transition Redeemer. It was a hard transition Redeemer. It was a hard transition generationally, but in some ways and generationally, but in some ways and generationally, but in some ways and that I nobody could have anticipated, that I nobody could have anticipated, that I nobody could have anticipated, CO gave the church a chance to reset in CO gave the church a chance to reset in CO gave the church a chance to reset in some ways. The loss was devastating some ways. The loss was devastating some ways. The loss was devastating economically, was more difficult in New economically, was more difficult in New economically, was more difficult in New York than anywhere else. And yet it also York than anywhere else. And yet it also York than anywhere else. And yet it also in retrospect was a kind of reboot for

in retrospect was a kind of reboot for in retrospect was a kind of reboot for the network in ways that have really the network in ways that have really the network in ways that have really turned out well. So, it's a reminder to turned out well. So, it's a reminder to turned out well. So, it's a reminder to me the way the Lord is is so kind um to me the way the Lord is is so kind um to me the way the Lord is is so kind um to provide in ways that we couldn't have provide in ways that we couldn't have provide in ways that we couldn't have planned. And your dad planned as much as planned. And your dad planned as much as planned. And your dad planned as much as anybody could have. [laughter] anybody could have. [laughter] anybody could have. [laughter] Yeah. The last thing I'll say on this is Yeah. The last thing I'll say on this is Yeah. The last thing I'll say on this is um and you you knew my father, so it's um and you you knew my father, so it's um and you you knew my father, so it's like I'm talking to you, but for those like I'm talking to you, but for those like I'm talking to you, but for those who don't, my father was the kind of who don't, my father was the kind of who don't, my father was the kind of person who made it easy not to want to person who made it easy not to want to person who made it easy not to want to replicate him. Yes. because a of you replicate him. Yes. because a of you replicate him. Yes. because a of you could see his abilities in in a certain could see his abilities in in a certain could see his abilities in in a certain area, but b he had this presence and area, but b he had this presence and area, but b he had this presence and humility where uh it wasn't like a oh I humility where uh it wasn't like a oh I humility where uh it wasn't like a oh I want to try to emulate him and from a want to try to emulate him and from a want to try to emulate him and from a legacy point of view for me personally legacy point of view for me personally legacy point of view for me personally but also with the redeemer network I I but also with the redeemer network I I but also with the redeemer network I I think the best legacy and everybody think the best legacy and everybody think the best legacy and everybody agrees to with this is not to try to agrees to with this is not to try to agrees to with this is not to try to replicate and try to do what he did. Uh replicate and try to do what he did. Uh replicate and try to do what he did. Uh the most honoring thing that we could do the most honoring thing that we could do the most honoring thing that we could do is not to point back to Tim Keller that is not to point back to Tim Keller that is not to point back to Tim Keller that he wouldn't want that. he would know he wouldn't want that. he would know he wouldn't want that. he would know also that's not what's needed. The most also that's not what's needed. The most also that's not what's needed. The most honoring thing is not to point back to honoring thing is not to point back to honoring thing is not to point back to him. It's to point forward to what he him. It's to point forward to what he him. It's to point forward to what he always pointed to and he pointed to two always pointed to and he pointed to two always pointed to and he pointed to two things, Colin. He pointed to the gospel things, Colin. He pointed to the gospel things, Colin. He pointed to the gospel changes everything and it changes you if changes everything and it changes you if changes everything and it changes you if you can be put in a way that you can you can be put in a way that you can you can be put in a way that you can understand it. And I think Redeemer and understand it. And I think Redeemer and understand it. And I think Redeemer and and I think uh a lot of other people and I think uh a lot of other people and I think uh a lot of other people have been affected by Redeemer and my have been affected by Redeemer and my have been affected by Redeemer and my father understand that that the gospel father understand that that the gospel father understand that that the gospel changes everything but it changes you changes everything but it changes you changes everything but it changes you when it can be put in a way that you can when it can be put in a way that you can when it can be put in a way that you can understand it. And I and I'm excited to understand it. And I and I'm excited to understand it. And I and I'm excited to do that imperfectly as we all are in the

do that imperfectly as we all are in the do that imperfectly as we all are in the ways that we can. And I think this book ways that we can. And I think this book ways that we can. And I think this book is in that leg is in that vein because is in that leg is in that vein because is in that leg is in that vein because it's trying to help people see the true it's trying to help people see the true it's trying to help people see the true and better story. And maybe we can and better story. And maybe we can and better story. And maybe we can people will be convinced by that. And people will be convinced by that. And people will be convinced by that. And even if they're not, hopefully they even if they're not, hopefully they even if they're not, hopefully they they'll at least see that uh um the they'll at least see that uh um the they'll at least see that uh um the stories that they're currently living on stories that they're currently living on stories that they're currently living on are are, you know, incomplete. That book are are, you know, incomplete. That book are are, you know, incomplete. That book again, the stories we live by, seven again, the stories we live by, seven again, the stories we live by, seven cultural myths that fail us and the cultural myths that fail us and the cultural myths that fail us and the story that never will. That's with story that never will. That's with story that never will. That's with Zervin. Let's turn to the next book, Zervin. Let's turn to the next book, Zervin. Let's turn to the next book, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, Honest Conversations when Life Gets Honest Conversations when Life Gets Honest Conversations when Life Gets Complicated. Um, I felt in some ways, Complicated. Um, I felt in some ways, Complicated. Um, I felt in some ways, Michael, like when I was reading the Michael, like when I was reading the Michael, like when I was reading the first book that I was kind of my typical first book that I was kind of my typical first book that I was kind of my typical editor, publisher, all that sort of editor, publisher, all that sort of editor, publisher, all that sort of stuff. Then I read the next book and I stuff. Then I read the next book and I stuff. Then I read the next book and I felt like you guys were reading me felt like you guys were reading me felt like you guys were reading me [laughter] and I felt like, oh, oh, that [laughter] and I felt like, oh, oh, that [laughter] and I felt like, oh, oh, that hurt. That was that was painful. You hurt. That was that was painful. You hurt. That was that was painful. You guys really got me in a lot of good guys really got me in a lot of good guys really got me in a lot of good ways. ways. ways. >> Go into that more cuz I want to hear >> Go into that more cuz I want to hear >> Go into that more cuz I want to hear your you we actually you and I haven't your you we actually you and I haven't your you we actually you and I haven't talked about your thoughts on the book. talked about your thoughts on the book. talked about your thoughts on the book. So, I' love to hear your and I'm not So, I' love to hear your and I'm not So, I' love to hear your and I'm not saying tell me more about why you think saying tell me more about why you think saying tell me more about why you think it's so great, but I'm What do you think it's so great, but I'm What do you think it's so great, but I'm What do you think that that book What was so interesting that that book What was so interesting that that book What was so interesting about that?

about that? about that? >> I just I think I'm in a season of of >> I just I think I'm in a season of of >> I just I think I'm in a season of of conviction as a parent of I just see conviction as a parent of I just see conviction as a parent of I just see lists of things that you guys talk about lists of things that you guys talk about lists of things that you guys talk about in there about, you know, biblically, of in there about, you know, biblically, of in there about, you know, biblically, of course, do not exasperate your children course, do not exasperate your children course, do not exasperate your children and things like that, and I think, oh, and things like that, and I think, oh, and things like that, and I think, oh, I'm doing way too much of that right I'm doing way too much of that right I'm doing way too much of that right now. And so there were so many parts now. And so there were so many parts now. And so there were so many parts that I was highlighting, but I wasn't that I was highlighting, but I wasn't that I was highlighting, but I wasn't highlighting them because I thought, highlighting them because I thought, highlighting them because I thought, "Oh, that'll be good to ask Michael "Oh, that'll be good to ask Michael "Oh, that'll be good to ask Michael about." Some of that was the case, but about." Some of that was the case, but about." Some of that was the case, but mostly I thought, "Oh, that's the Holy mostly I thought, "Oh, that's the Holy mostly I thought, "Oh, that's the Holy Spirit bringing bringing good and Spirit bringing bringing good and Spirit bringing bringing good and necessary conviction." Because I think necessary conviction." Because I think necessary conviction." Because I think when it comes to parenting, yes, you're when it comes to parenting, yes, you're when it comes to parenting, yes, you're hit in such a way that says, "Oh, that hit in such a way that says, "Oh, that hit in such a way that says, "Oh, that my sin is exposed. I need to ask God for my sin is exposed. I need to ask God for my sin is exposed. I need to ask God for forgiveness. I need to ask my family for forgiveness. I need to ask my family for forgiveness. I need to ask my family for forgiveness. I need to to throw myself forgiveness. I need to to throw myself forgiveness. I need to to throw myself under the at the foot of the throne of under the at the foot of the throne of under the at the foot of the throne of grace here. But it's kind of different grace here. But it's kind of different grace here. But it's kind of different with parenting because your motivation with parenting because your motivation with parenting because your motivation is love still is love still is love still toward them. So you look at it and you toward them. So you look at it and you toward them. So you look at it and you think, well, I want to be better for think, well, I want to be better for think, well, I want to be better for them. I want to love them more them. I want to love them more them. I want to love them more effectively. So it doesn't it's not it's effectively. So it doesn't it's not it's effectively. So it doesn't it's not it's not self-centered. It's more of okay, not self-centered. It's more of okay, not self-centered. It's more of okay, this this repentance is itself expressed this this repentance is itself expressed this this repentance is itself expressed in how I would love and care for my in how I would love and care for my in how I would love and care for my family. So I want to just ask you first family. So I want to just ask you first family. So I want to just ask you first though a question about how this book though a question about how this book though a question about how this book with Rebecca. Um you guys are good with Rebecca. Um you guys are good with Rebecca. Um you guys are good friends in the neighborhood. A lot of friends in the neighborhood. A lot of friends in the neighborhood. A lot of daughters there between across the daughters there between across the daughters there between across the street between the family uh between the street between the family uh between the street between the family uh between the families and loved your mother's families and loved your mother's families and loved your mother's forward. uh her her work, her teaching

forward. uh her her work, her teaching forward. uh her her work, her teaching about parenting is one of the most about parenting is one of the most about parenting is one of the most gracefilled things that anybody could gracefilled things that anybody could gracefilled things that anybody could hear because she's so honest about her hear because she's so honest about her hear because she's so honest about her imperfections as a mother and so honest imperfections as a mother and so honest imperfections as a mother and so honest about how God still provided in so many about how God still provided in so many about how God still provided in so many different ways. And so tell us just a different ways. And so tell us just a different ways. And so tell us just a little bit about how the book came about little bit about how the book came about little bit about how the book came about because most famously parenting was a because most famously parenting was a because most famously parenting was a subject that your parents did not write subject that your parents did not write subject that your parents did not write a book about. a book about. a book about. >> Yeah. Um, it's a great so it's, you >> Yeah. Um, it's a great so it's, you >> Yeah. Um, it's a great so it's, you know, it's funny these two books. Um, know, it's funny these two books. Um, know, it's funny these two books. Um, the stories we live by. I felt the need the stories we live by. I felt the need the stories we live by. I felt the need to do it because dad and I said we were to do it because dad and I said we were to do it because dad and I said we were going to do it. This there sometimes going to do it. This there sometimes going to do it. This there sometimes there's books that you didn't look for there's books that you didn't look for there's books that you didn't look for but they just sort of happened. That's but they just sort of happened. That's but they just sort of happened. That's what happened with Becca Hannah who what happened with Becca Hannah who what happened with Becca Hannah who Becca is uh is our children was our Becca is uh is our children was our Becca is uh is our children was our children's director. Now she's our children's director. Now she's our children's director. Now she's our director of um family life. and she's director of um family life. and she's director of um family life. and she's like, "We need to help equip our our like, "We need to help equip our our like, "We need to help equip our our families." And I I I was very families." And I I I was very families." And I I I was very anti-parenting book. I've been in the anti-parenting book. I've been in the anti-parenting book. I've been in the sense that I feel like a lot of them uh sense that I feel like a lot of them uh sense that I feel like a lot of them uh well, we talk about this in I this was well, we talk about this in I this was well, we talk about this in I this was my first chapter. We we talk about this my first chapter. We we talk about this my first chapter. We we talk about this where I said the problem with most where I said the problem with most where I said the problem with most parenting books that I've seen is the parenting books that I've seen is the parenting books that I've seen is the even though they might color it and and even though they might color it and and even though they might color it and and dress it up in a certain way. It still dress it up in a certain way. It still dress it up in a certain way. It still gets down to if you do if you do A and B gets down to if you do if you do A and B gets down to if you do if you do A and B and C, your kid will turn out good over and C, your kid will turn out good over and C, your kid will turn out good over here and it which felt like it just here and it which felt like it just here and it which felt like it just heaps on shame on you and and things heaps on shame on you and and things heaps on shame on you and and things that you're doing wrong and stuff. A and

that you're doing wrong and stuff. A and that you're doing wrong and stuff. A and the other problem was is I don't want the other problem was is I don't want the other problem was is I don't want anybody to look at my own parenting and anybody to look at my own parenting and anybody to look at my own parenting and say are you a good parent or not? But say are you a good parent or not? But say are you a good parent or not? But that's why this book was fascinating that's why this book was fascinating that's why this book was fascinating because it that's what it talks about is because it that's what it talks about is because it that's what it talks about is it says this is the it addresses that it says this is the it addresses that it says this is the it addresses that the elephant in the room when it comes the elephant in the room when it comes the elephant in the room when it comes to how not just how parenting books work to how not just how parenting books work to how not just how parenting books work but how we work. We want to make sure but how we work. We want to make sure but how we work. We want to make sure our kids are successful. We want to our kids are successful. We want to our kids are successful. We want to micromanage them and do these things. micromanage them and do these things. micromanage them and do these things. And And And in the book I talk about uh bunker in the book I talk about uh bunker in the book I talk about uh bunker parents. The way that you live your life parents. The way that you live your life parents. The way that you live your life is you try to uh hunker down and and is you try to uh hunker down and and is you try to uh hunker down and and keep all the culture out. And but then keep all the culture out. And but then keep all the culture out. And but then bubble parents where you kind of shrink bubble parents where you kind of shrink bubble parents where you kind of shrink wrap your kid and you just want to wrap your kid and you just want to wrap your kid and you just want to protect them in bubble wrap. And the way protect them in bubble wrap. And the way protect them in bubble wrap. And the way you do that though is by not ever you do that though is by not ever you do that though is by not ever confronting them on anything and letting confronting them on anything and letting confronting them on anything and letting culture just do whatever it wants. And culture just do whatever it wants. And culture just do whatever it wants. And we can kind of fail in both those areas. we can kind of fail in both those areas. we can kind of fail in both those areas. But the the crux of the books is But the the crux of the books is But the the crux of the books is basically your kids need your repentance basically your kids need your repentance basically your kids need your repentance more than they need your perfection. And more than they need your perfection. And more than they need your perfection. And I think that's what parents need to hear I think that's what parents need to hear I think that's what parents need to hear a lot of. And that comes out of I guess a lot of. And that comes out of I guess a lot of. And that comes out of I guess how I was parented because my parents how I was parented because my parents how I was parented because my parents and my my mom says this in the forward and my my mom says this in the forward and my my mom says this in the forward so I'm not revealing anything but she my so I'm not revealing anything but she my so I'm not revealing anything but she my parents were not great parents but they parents were not great parents but they parents were not great parents but they were great at grace and they were great were great at grace and they were great were great at grace and they were great at forgiving repenting and I could say at forgiving repenting and I could say at forgiving repenting and I could say in to some degree I was able to come in to some degree I was able to come in to some degree I was able to come back to Christianity because of that back to Christianity because of that back to Christianity because of that that they were able to pull that off.

that they were able to pull that off. that they were able to pull that off. But there's this great um my my mom uh But there's this great um my my mom uh But there's this great um my my mom uh let me just read as a quick quote from let me just read as a quick quote from let me just read as a quick quote from the four from my mom's forge. She says, the four from my mom's forge. She says, the four from my mom's forge. She says, "Our three sons have long insisted that "Our three sons have long insisted that "Our three sons have long insisted that Tim and I should never give any parent Tim and I should never give any parent Tim and I should never give any parent anyone parenting advice." And they anyone parenting advice." And they anyone parenting advice." And they [clears throat] may have a point. [clears throat] may have a point. [clears throat] may have a point. Despite co-authoring a book on marriage, Despite co-authoring a book on marriage, Despite co-authoring a book on marriage, Tim and I never wrote one on parenting. Tim and I never wrote one on parenting. Tim and I never wrote one on parenting. Uh we watch because we watch friends who Uh we watch because we watch friends who Uh we watch because we watch friends who seemed far more intentional, far more seemed far more intentional, far more seemed far more intentional, far more consistent, far more creative than we consistent, far more creative than we consistent, far more creative than we were. Yet their children's outcomes were were. Yet their children's outcomes were were. Yet their children's outcomes were no more predictable than ours. no more predictable than ours. no more predictable than ours. Parenting, if anything at all, is a Parenting, if anything at all, is a Parenting, if anything at all, is a humbling endeavor. I once told a friend humbling endeavor. I once told a friend humbling endeavor. I once told a friend that it is better to be high on grace that it is better to be high on grace that it is better to be high on grace than on techniques when it comes to than on techniques when it comes to than on techniques when it comes to raising your kids. I still believe that raising your kids. I still believe that raising your kids. I still believe that grace does not mean giving up. It does grace does not mean giving up. It does grace does not mean giving up. It does mean giving up on the idea that the mean giving up on the idea that the mean giving up on the idea that the right formula will produce the right right formula will produce the right right formula will produce the right result. And I love that quote because it result. And I love that quote because it result. And I love that quote because it she does a great job of summarizing she does a great job of summarizing she does a great job of summarizing basically what we were trying to get at basically what we were trying to get at basically what we were trying to get at uh in in the book. So uh in in the book. So uh in in the book. So >> I don't know what what Yeah. I I've >> I don't know what what Yeah. I I've >> I don't know what what Yeah. I I've learned so much obviously from both of learned so much obviously from both of learned so much obviously from both of your parents, especially your dad in a your parents, especially your dad in a your parents, especially your dad in a lot of ways, but I started this this lot of ways, but I started this this lot of ways, but I started this this podcast with something that I learned podcast with something that I learned podcast with something that I learned from you. And then this is something from you. And then this is something from you. And then this is something that I learned from you. I can't tell that I learned from you. I can't tell that I learned from you. I can't tell you, Michael, how many different times you, Michael, how many different times you, Michael, how many different times I'm sitting there going through I'm sitting there going through I'm sitting there going through something with my kids and I realize something with my kids and I realize something with my kids and I realize I've I've gotten angry. I've said I've I've gotten angry. I've said I've I've gotten angry. I've said something I shouldn't have said. I've something I shouldn't have said. I've something I shouldn't have said. I've reacted in a way I did not want to reacted in a way I did not want to reacted in a way I did not want to react. and where I've stopped and I've react. and where I've stopped and I've react. and where I've stopped and I've just thought, you know, I remember where just thought, you know, I remember where just thought, you know, I remember where I was when Michael explained to me that I was when Michael explained to me that I was when Michael explained to me that the one thing he could remember more

the one thing he could remember more the one thing he could remember more than anything else from his parents was than anything else from his parents was than anything else from his parents was their willingness to apologize. their willingness to apologize. their willingness to apologize. And I just stopped like, yeah, that's And I just stopped like, yeah, that's And I just stopped like, yeah, that's that's what I need to do. I can't go that's what I need to do. I can't go that's what I need to do. I can't go back and I can't fix that. Hopefully, I back and I can't fix that. Hopefully, I back and I can't fix that. Hopefully, I won't make the same mistake and fall won't make the same mistake and fall won't make the same mistake and fall into the same sin next time. Um, that's into the same sin next time. Um, that's into the same sin next time. Um, that's what we trust in the spirit for in what we trust in the spirit for in what we trust in the spirit for in sanctification. sanctification. sanctification. But I just need to stop right now and But I just need to stop right now and But I just need to stop right now and hope and pray that whatever my kids will hope and pray that whatever my kids will hope and pray that whatever my kids will remember of of me and of course you and remember of of me and of course you and remember of of me and of course you and I are we're also in ministry. We're also I are we're also in ministry. We're also I are we're also in ministry. We're also public figures. Our own kids will have public figures. Our own kids will have public figures. Our own kids will have those different dynamics of remembering those different dynamics of remembering those different dynamics of remembering who we were and interacting with people who we were and interacting with people who we were and interacting with people who knew who we were in public versus who knew who we were in public versus who knew who we were in public versus who we were in private. And I just I who we were in private. And I just I who we were in private. And I just I just keep thinking I want that. I mean, just keep thinking I want that. I mean, just keep thinking I want that. I mean, hopefully they remember the way that I hopefully they remember the way that I hopefully they remember the way that I loved them in all sorts of other ways, loved them in all sorts of other ways, loved them in all sorts of other ways, but I hope at the very least they can but I hope at the very least they can but I hope at the very least they can remember that when dad was at home, remember that when dad was at home, remember that when dad was at home, yeah, he he messed stuff up, but he was yeah, he he messed stuff up, but he was yeah, he he messed stuff up, but he was willing to apologize because he willing to apologize because he willing to apologize because he recognized that we're made in the image recognized that we're made in the image recognized that we're made in the image of God. We're not going to be perfect.

of God. We're not going to be perfect. of God. We're not going to be perfect. Um, and um, we throw ourselves on grace. Um, and um, we throw ourselves on grace. Um, and um, we throw ourselves on grace. So, So, So, >> that but that's Colin, that's that's it. >> that but that's Colin, that's that's it. >> that but that's Colin, that's that's it. That's such a good word. And I I over That's such a good word. And I I over That's such a good word. And I I over the years parents have come to me and the years parents have come to me and the years parents have come to me and said, "Oh, you know, you know, I wish I said, "Oh, you know, you know, I wish I said, "Oh, you know, you know, I wish I was either knew my knew Christianity was either knew my knew Christianity was either knew my knew Christianity better or I wish I could say the gospel better or I wish I could say the gospel better or I wish I could say the gospel better. I wish I had a father like your better. I wish I had a father like your better. I wish I had a father like your father." I mean, there's all kinds of father." I mean, there's all kinds of father." I mean, there's all kinds of things. And I think I can say in the things. And I think I can say in the things. And I think I can say in the past 50 or 100 years, I got one I got past 50 or 100 years, I got one I got past 50 or 100 years, I got one I got one of the better gospel presentations one of the better gospel presentations one of the better gospel presentations in home in my home. And guess what? I in home in my home. And guess what? I in home in my home. And guess what? I wasn't saved by that gospel wasn't saved by that gospel wasn't saved by that gospel presentation. You know why? cuz you're presentation. You know why? cuz you're presentation. You know why? cuz you're not saved by a by the best gospel not saved by a by the best gospel not saved by a by the best gospel presentation. You're saved by the presentation. You're saved by the presentation. You're saved by the gospel. I think it's really important gospel. I think it's really important gospel. I think it's really important for people to hear is that it's not for people to hear is that it's not for people to hear is that it's not you're not going to save your kid you're not going to save your kid you're not going to save your kid because you do the perfect statement and because you do the perfect statement and because you do the perfect statement and gospel presentation. And I wasn't I grew gospel presentation. And I wasn't I grew gospel presentation. And I wasn't I grew up with that. It was only later in up with that. It was only later in up with that. It was only later in college through a college ministry that college through a college ministry that college through a college ministry that I was able to uh come to faith through a I was able to uh come to faith through a I was able to uh come to faith through a long difficult process. But what did long difficult process. But what did long difficult process. But what did help was seeing my parents forgive and help was seeing my parents forgive and help was seeing my parents forgive and repent. So it's it that was a better repent. So it's it that was a better repent. So it's it that was a better distillation of the gospel in action for distillation of the gospel in action for distillation of the gospel in action for me than any kind of thing that my me than any kind of thing that my me than any kind of thing that my parents said for me growing up which I parents said for me growing up which I parents said for me growing up which I think personally as a pastor's kid it think personally as a pastor's kid it think personally as a pastor's kid it was hard to hear because it was also the was hard to hear because it was also the was hard to hear because it was also the family job. So where did they end and I family job. So where did they end and I family job. So where did they end and I began and all those kind of fraught began and all those kind of fraught began and all those kind of fraught stuff. So the the the actions of stuff. So the the the actions of stuff. So the the the actions of forgiven repenting were much more forgiven repenting were much more forgiven repenting were much more impactful. So I love that you said that impactful. So I love that you said that impactful. So I love that you said that because I think parents need to hear because I think parents need to hear because I think parents need to hear that. I haven't told you this before,

that. I haven't told you this before, that. I haven't told you this before, but there's someone I'm close to, a but there's someone I'm close to, a but there's someone I'm close to, a loved one, and I've prayed for this loved one, and I've prayed for this loved one, and I've prayed for this person to come to faith for decades, and person to come to faith for decades, and person to come to faith for decades, and hasn't happened. And and it is a little hasn't happened. And and it is a little hasn't happened. And and it is a little awkward, embarrassing, frustrating. I awkward, embarrassing, frustrating. I awkward, embarrassing, frustrating. I sit there thinking, gosh, these are sit there thinking, gosh, these are sit there thinking, gosh, these are things that I do professionally, and I things that I do professionally, and I things that I do professionally, and I can't even influence this this person. can't even influence this this person. can't even influence this this person. And so, at one point, I brought this And so, at one point, I brought this And so, at one point, I brought this person to actually hear your dad. your person to actually hear your dad. your person to actually hear your dad. your dad gave a gospel presentation and I dad gave a gospel presentation and I dad gave a gospel presentation and I asked this person, this loved one asked this person, this loved one asked this person, this loved one afterward and the response was, "Oh, I afterward and the response was, "Oh, I afterward and the response was, "Oh, I loved that message. I agree with it loved that message. I agree with it loved that message. I agree with it wholeheartedly. The only thing that wholeheartedly. The only thing that wholeheartedly. The only thing that really matters in life that we just be a really matters in life that we just be a really matters in life that we just be a good person." [laughter] good person." [laughter] good person." [laughter] >> Right. Right. Because you're like, >> Right. Right. Because you're like, >> Right. Right. Because you're like, "Wait, what? "Wait, what? "Wait, what? >> That wasn't what he said at all." But it >> That wasn't what he said at all." But it >> That wasn't what he said at all." But it is sobering because this is what the is sobering because this is what the is sobering because this is what the Bible says. It's what we believe. I Bible says. It's what we believe. I Bible says. It's what we believe. I don't understand it necessarily, but if don't understand it necessarily, but if don't understand it necessarily, but if you don't have the eyes of faith you don't have the eyes of faith you don't have the eyes of faith >> are the ears or the ears >> are the ears or the ears >> are the ears or the ears >> and the ears to hear.

>> and the ears to hear. >> and the ears to hear. There were people who lived with Jesus There were people who lived with Jesus There were people who lived with Jesus who saw the resurrected Jesus and they who saw the resurrected Jesus and they who saw the resurrected Jesus and they did not believe. So at some level our did not believe. So at some level our did not believe. So at some level our technique absolutely matters. You technique absolutely matters. You technique absolutely matters. You mentioned earlier put it in a way that mentioned earlier put it in a way that mentioned earlier put it in a way that people can understand but it's still people can understand but it's still people can understand but it's still going to be a miraculous work of the going to be a miraculous work of the going to be a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit to be able to understand. Holy Spirit to be able to understand. Holy Spirit to be able to understand. And I just even as in this conversation, And I just even as in this conversation, And I just even as in this conversation, Michael, I'm thinking there about how Michael, I'm thinking there about how Michael, I'm thinking there about how many times, and this also goes back to many times, and this also goes back to many times, and this also goes back to your parents. I think sit there your parents. I think sit there your parents. I think sit there thinking, you know what, I can solve thinking, you know what, I can solve thinking, you know what, I can solve this problem with a lecture. [laughter] this problem with a lecture. [laughter] this problem with a lecture. [laughter] I mean, I am an a world expert in this I mean, I am an a world expert in this I mean, I am an a world expert in this topic. I'm going to solve this problem topic. I'm going to solve this problem topic. I'm going to solve this problem [laughter] with a lecture. I'm thinking, [laughter] with a lecture. I'm thinking, [laughter] with a lecture. I'm thinking, oh, I don't I don't think there's a lot oh, I don't I don't think there's a lot oh, I don't I don't think there's a lot my kids are actually going to learn my kids are actually going to learn my kids are actually going to learn from. And maybe it's just because of from. And maybe it's just because of from. And maybe it's just because of their stage of life or because lectures their stage of life or because lectures their stage of life or because lectures are not always the best way to do it. Or are not always the best way to do it. Or are not always the best way to do it. Or maybe it's because they don't want maybe it's because they don't want maybe it's because they don't want lectures from their dad. But I can't I lectures from their dad. But I can't I lectures from their dad. But I can't I can't help it at some level. But I think can't help it at some level. But I think can't help it at some level. But I think it's just more likely that what they're it's just more likely that what they're it's just more likely that what they're going to remember later is the kind of going to remember later is the kind of going to remember later is the kind of person I was to them, including that person I was to them, including that person I was to them, including that repentance. And so it brings me back, repentance. And so it brings me back, repentance. And so it brings me back, Michael, to this question, and maybe Michael, to this question, and maybe Michael, to this question, and maybe we've already answered it there, but in we've already answered it there, but in we've already answered it there, but in light of the book, what's the most light of the book, what's the most light of the book, what's the most important thing we can do to help our important thing we can do to help our important thing we can do to help our children feel comfortable talking to us children feel comfortable talking to us children feel comfortable talking to us about about hard things? That's the about about hard things? That's the about about hard things? That's the whole point of the book. And and I, you whole point of the book. And and I, you whole point of the book. And and I, you know, my oldest is is currently 11 as know, my oldest is is currently 11 as know, my oldest is is currently 11 as we're recording this. And so, we're we're recording this. And so, we're we're recording this. And so, we're we've talked about hard things. Even we've talked about hard things. Even we've talked about hard things. Even last night, he and I were talking about last night, he and I were talking about last night, he and I were talking about reading through 2 Samuel together. and

reading through 2 Samuel together. and reading through 2 Samuel together. and he said to me, "You know, Dad, he said to me, "You know, Dad, he said to me, "You know, Dad, David killed a lot of guys. It's kind of David killed a lot of guys. It's kind of David killed a lot of guys. It's kind of weird that God told him to do that." weird that God told him to do that." weird that God told him to do that." So, that was a little bit that did So, that was a little bit that did So, that was a little bit that did require a little bit of apologetic require a little bit of apologetic require a little bit of apologetic lecture afterward in there. Um, and I lecture afterward in there. Um, and I lecture afterward in there. Um, and I was glad that he asked me that he asked was glad that he asked me that he asked was glad that he asked me that he asked me that question. But for parents out me that question. But for parents out me that question. But for parents out there, what is the most important thing there, what is the most important thing there, what is the most important thing we can do to help them to feel we can do to help them to feel we can do to help them to feel comfortable to ask hard things? It could comfortable to ask hard things? It could comfortable to ask hard things? It could be could be apologetic things like that, be could be apologetic things like that, be could be apologetic things like that, sexual questions, anything. What's the sexual questions, anything. What's the sexual questions, anything. What's the number one thing? Well, the book is number one thing? Well, the book is number one thing? Well, the book is organized where Becca Hannah and I go organized where Becca Hannah and I go organized where Becca Hannah and I go every other chapter. So, um, and we every other chapter. So, um, and we every other chapter. So, um, and we write differently and she she's much write differently and she she's much write differently and she she's much better than I am at stories and better than I am at stories and better than I am at stories and narrative and, uh, narrative and, uh, narrative and, uh, I think it's helpful because some folks I think it's helpful because some folks I think it's helpful because some folks are more story based and narrative based are more story based and narrative based are more story based and narrative based and some, um, you know, I have the and some, um, you know, I have the and some, um, you know, I have the whatever it is doing ideas. So I talk whatever it is doing ideas. So I talk whatever it is doing ideas. So I talk about the bunker bubble but that's again about the bunker bubble but that's again about the bunker bubble but that's again that's helpful just from a conceptually that's helpful just from a conceptually that's helpful just from a conceptually but there's a chapter I do called teach but there's a chapter I do called teach but there's a chapter I do called teach like Jesus and it's very simple concept like Jesus and it's very simple concept like Jesus and it's very simple concept is that Jesus asks something hundreds of is that Jesus asks something hundreds of is that Jesus asks something hundreds of questions and uh he only answers himself questions and uh he only answers himself questions and uh he only answers himself like three or four if you go over all like three or four if you go over all like three or four if you go over all the gospels um I I gotta find the the gospels um I I gotta find the the gospels um I I gotta find the the I think it's like 300 and something the I think it's like 300 and something the I think it's like 300 and something questions he asks. Now, obviously the questions he asks. Now, obviously the questions he asks. Now, obviously the the gospel sometimes it's the same the gospel sometimes it's the same the gospel sometimes it's the same question, but it's the same ex um event,

question, but it's the same ex um event, question, but it's the same ex um event, but it's helpful for people to see that but it's helpful for people to see that but it's helpful for people to see that that um what can we learn from that? that um what can we learn from that? that um what can we learn from that? It's like are you have to think about it It's like are you have to think about it It's like are you have to think about it in in age appropriate ways, right? I in in age appropriate ways, right? I in in age appropriate ways, right? I don't know. Sometimes asking your kid, don't know. Sometimes asking your kid, don't know. Sometimes asking your kid, your three-year-old, should you put your your three-year-old, should you put your your three-year-old, should you put your finger in the fire? No. But there's a finger in the fire? No. But there's a finger in the fire? No. But there's a in an age appropriate way how do we in an age appropriate way how do we in an age appropriate way how do we actually um teach with like Jesus and he actually um teach with like Jesus and he actually um teach with like Jesus and he taught with questions and he taught with taught with questions and he taught with taught with questions and he taught with parables with stories and uh which this parables with stories and uh which this parables with stories and uh which this kind of dove tales with you know the kind of dove tales with you know the kind of dove tales with you know the other book about about stories in in other book about about stories in in other book about about stories in in this sense. So I think there's something this sense. So I think there's something this sense. So I think there's something there. I think there. I think there. I think there's something about it's your child there's something about it's your child there's something about it's your child can always come up with arguments can always come up with arguments can always come up with arguments against you, but it can't you tend not against you, but it can't you tend not against you, but it can't you tend not to be able to come up with arguments to be able to come up with arguments to be able to come up with arguments against yourself. So when you ask against yourself. So when you ask against yourself. So when you ask questions and you have to discover where questions and you have to discover where questions and you have to discover where those answers are, it helps kind of get those answers are, it helps kind of get those answers are, it helps kind of get there. But it also leads with what you there. But it also leads with what you there. But it also leads with what you said earlier, which is if it's true that said earlier, which is if it's true that said earlier, which is if it's true that people live with Jesus and still people live with Jesus and still people live with Jesus and still rejected Jesus. Um it's going to be the rejected Jesus. Um it's going to be the rejected Jesus. Um it's going to be the work of the Holy Spirit. And parents work of the Holy Spirit. And parents work of the Holy Spirit. And parents need to hear that because it's supposed need to hear that because it's supposed need to hear that because it's supposed to be um if you really believe in grace, to be um if you really believe in grace, to be um if you really believe in grace, it's supposed to be free to some degree it's supposed to be free to some degree it's supposed to be free to some degree that your job is to get your kid to that your job is to get your kid to that your job is to get your kid to adulthood 100%. Your job is not to make adulthood 100%. Your job is not to make adulthood 100%. Your job is not to make them a Christian because that's that's them a Christian because that's that's them a Christian because that's that's the Holy Spirit's job. Now, c can you do the Holy Spirit's job. Now, c can you do the Holy Spirit's job. Now, c can you do the best you can to, the best you can to, the best you can to, you know, put your kid in a position?

you know, put your kid in a position? you know, put your kid in a position? Sure. And there's statistics that show Sure. And there's statistics that show Sure. And there's statistics that show we we talk about um Christian Smith and we we talk about um Christian Smith and we we talk about um Christian Smith and his book uh that was a recent book that his book uh that was a recent book that his book uh that was a recent book that come down the faith and what are things come down the faith and what are things come down the faith and what are things that you can do and this and that. But that you can do and this and that. But that you can do and this and that. But it's I think it's asking questions, it's I think it's asking questions, it's I think it's asking questions, living parables, and then trying to um living parables, and then trying to um living parables, and then trying to um in the book we talk about this, think in the book we talk about this, think in the book we talk about this, think about are we b are we bunkering or are about are we b are we bunkering or are about are we b are we bunkering or are we bubbling or are we being embassy we bubbling or are we being embassy we bubbling or are we being embassy parents? Are we kind of being in a parents? Are we kind of being in a parents? Are we kind of being in a foreign country uh with a different foreign country uh with a different foreign country uh with a different culture but still uh ministering in and culture but still uh ministering in and culture but still uh ministering in and around that space? Uh I I mean you around that space? Uh I I mean you around that space? Uh I I mean you Colin, you read the whole thing. What Colin, you read the whole thing. What Colin, you read the whole thing. What what were the parts that you thought what were the parts that you thought what were the parts that you thought were helpful? Well, there's another spot were helpful? Well, there's another spot were helpful? Well, there's another spot in here, Michael. Uh, Rebecca writes in in here, Michael. Uh, Rebecca writes in in here, Michael. Uh, Rebecca writes in the book, "Parenting reveals who we the book, "Parenting reveals who we the book, "Parenting reveals who we really are." I probably first really are." I probably first really are." I probably first encountered a variation on that concept encountered a variation on that concept encountered a variation on that concept with Paul Trip. Uh, he helped me to see with Paul Trip. Uh, he helped me to see with Paul Trip. Uh, he helped me to see that my reactions in parenting are not that my reactions in parenting are not that my reactions in parenting are not about my kids, they're about me. And I about my kids, they're about me. And I about my kids, they're about me. And I don't know why that was so important for don't know why that was so important for don't know why that was so important for me to know, but it was that when I'm me to know, but it was that when I'm me to know, but it was that when I'm upset at them, it's not it's not my upset at them, it's not it's not my upset at them, it's not it's not my circumstances. It's not them. It's circumstances. It's not them. It's circumstances. It's not them. It's amazing how amazing how amazing how >> I I I can you hit you see this most >> I I I can you hit you see this most >> I I I can you hit you see this most often, I think, when your kids are often, I think, when your kids are often, I think, when your kids are really little when they're babies or or really little when they're babies or or really little when they're babies or or toddlers and you get so upset at them as toddlers and you get so upset at them as toddlers and you get so upset at them as if they're some sort of like fully grown if they're some sort of like fully grown if they're some sort of like fully grown moral agents. It's just so embarrassing moral agents. It's just so embarrassing moral agents. It's just so embarrassing to see how you embarrassing and shameful

to see how you embarrassing and shameful to see how you embarrassing and shameful of how upset you can get at at a child of how upset you can get at at a child of how upset you can get at at a child who in a lot of ways just can't help it who in a lot of ways just can't help it who in a lot of ways just can't help it on some things. There are other things on some things. There are other things on some things. There are other things that they can help, but it that was that that they can help, but it that was that that they can help, but it that was that it revealed me to be less patient and it revealed me to be less patient and it revealed me to be less patient and less uh kind than I thought, but also to less uh kind than I thought, but also to less uh kind than I thought, but also to have capacity for love. I think that I have capacity for love. I think that I have capacity for love. I think that I just I didn't have before. So that was just I didn't have before. So that was just I didn't have before. So that was revealing to me. I was wondering for revealing to me. I was wondering for revealing to me. I was wondering for you. I know that was Rebecca's chapter, you. I know that was Rebecca's chapter, you. I know that was Rebecca's chapter, but um if parenting reveals who we but um if parenting reveals who we but um if parenting reveals who we really are, what do what has it revealed really are, what do what has it revealed really are, what do what has it revealed about you? [laughter] about you? [laughter] about you? [laughter] Uh that I'm a controlling that I don't Uh that I'm a controlling that I don't Uh that I'm a controlling that I don't really trust that I I I when you were really trust that I I I when you were really trust that I I I when you were talking I I think if I could just talking I I think if I could just talking I I think if I could just lecture enough then my kid will turn out lecture enough then my kid will turn out lecture enough then my kid will turn out okay. I I completely have that. I I fail okay. I I completely have that. I I fail okay. I I completely have that. I I fail that. You know, I in my more salient that. You know, I in my more salient that. You know, I in my more salient moments, I I I I have gone to my kids moments, I I I I have gone to my kids moments, I I I I have gone to my kids and said, you know, if I hang out with and said, you know, if I hang out with and said, you know, if I hang out with you too much, you I'm going to be an you too much, you I'm going to be an you too much, you I'm going to be an overbearing parent, and if I don't hang overbearing parent, and if I don't hang overbearing parent, and if I don't hang out with you enough, I'm going to be an out with you enough, I'm going to be an out with you enough, I'm going to be an absentee parent. And so, I just want to absentee parent. And so, I just want to absentee parent. And so, I just want to tell you right now, I'm sorry. I'm tell you right now, I'm sorry. I'm tell you right now, I'm sorry. I'm probably doing something somewhere probably doing something somewhere probably doing something somewhere wrong. And and I think I told that to wrong. And and I think I told that to wrong. And and I think I told that to them when they were like four or five, them when they were like four or five, them when they were like four or five, and they're like, "Daddy, you're so and they're like, "Daddy, you're so and they're like, "Daddy, you're so funny."

funny." funny." But I was trying to apologize be knowing But I was trying to apologize be knowing But I was trying to apologize be knowing even before I knew what to apologize for even before I knew what to apologize for even before I knew what to apologize for because I knew that there was something because I knew that there was something because I knew that there was something there. So I I I I think there. So I I I I think there. So I I I I think yeah, parenting reveals yeah, parenting reveals yeah, parenting reveals uh so much to yourself and that there's uh so much to yourself and that there's uh so much to yourself and that there's something good about that because then something good about that because then something good about that because then we can repent and hope not just to our we can repent and hope not just to our we can repent and hope not just to our kids hopefully but to our Lord. Uh yeah. kids hopefully but to our Lord. Uh yeah. kids hopefully but to our Lord. Uh yeah. Right. So, um, yeah, and I guess maybe Right. So, um, yeah, and I guess maybe Right. So, um, yeah, and I guess maybe it's revealed that I have a lot less it's revealed that I have a lot less it's revealed that I have a lot less control than I thought I did, though. As control than I thought I did, though. As control than I thought I did, though. As my kids get older, I thought I was more my kids get older, I thought I was more my kids get older, I thought I was more in control. And I guess as I get older, in control. And I guess as I get older, in control. And I guess as I get older, I realize I'm not. Well, just a a last I realize I'm not. Well, just a a last I realize I'm not. Well, just a a last question here. Um, question here. Um, question here. Um, well, I would just say about control well, I would just say about control well, I would just say about control that is that is an absolute universal. that is that is an absolute universal. that is that is an absolute universal. Um, and it it has it manifests itself in Um, and it it has it manifests itself in Um, and it it has it manifests itself in multiple directions. One of them is the multiple directions. One of them is the multiple directions. One of them is the the grace question here that we think if the grace question here that we think if the grace question here that we think if we just do all the right things we'll we just do all the right things we'll we just do all the right things we'll get the right outcomes realizes that's get the right outcomes realizes that's get the right outcomes realizes that's just not actually true. Um and it never just not actually true. Um and it never just not actually true. Um and it never was promised to us and yet a more was promised to us and yet a more was promised to us and yet a more hopeful answer is given to us which is hopeful answer is given to us which is hopeful answer is given to us which is that even when we fail God's grace can that even when we fail God's grace can that even when we fail God's grace can prevail. And your story and your life is prevail. And your story and your life is prevail. And your story and your life is an example of that. But also it's a an example of that. But also it's a an example of that. But also it's a recognition that you don't stop being a recognition that you don't stop being a recognition that you don't stop being a parent when they're 18. You don't stop parent when they're 18. You don't stop parent when they're 18. You don't stop when they're 22. And then you clearly when they're 22. And then you clearly when they're 22. And then you clearly still love them to the same extent, but still love them to the same extent, but still love them to the same extent, but you have so much even less control as you have so much even less control as you have so much even less control as they go on in there. And so that control they go on in there. And so that control they go on in there. And so that control is as it is in everywhere else in life, is as it is in everywhere else in life, is as it is in everywhere else in life, it's an illusion. Uh, I want to wrap on

it's an illusion. Uh, I want to wrap on it's an illusion. Uh, I want to wrap on this point and it's inevitable, Michael, this point and it's inevitable, Michael, this point and it's inevitable, Michael, especially when you're writing a book especially when you're writing a book especially when you're writing a book with with your dad and your name and with with your dad and your name and with with your dad and your name and your ministry and the work that we do your ministry and the work that we do your ministry and the work that we do together at the Keller Center that together at the Keller Center that together at the Keller Center that you're going to answer a lot of you're going to answer a lot of you're going to answer a lot of questions about your dad and about your questions about your dad and about your questions about your dad and about your mom and about your family and all that mom and about your family and all that mom and about your family and all that kind of stuff. And church planting is kind of stuff. And church planting is kind of stuff. And church planting is the kind of thing that it's a family the kind of thing that it's a family the kind of thing that it's a family endeavor. Ministry in general is, but endeavor. Ministry in general is, but endeavor. Ministry in general is, but church planting especially, you guys are church planting especially, you guys are church planting especially, you guys are moving to a different city and growing moving to a different city and growing moving to a different city and growing up in a different place. But I wanted to up in a different place. But I wanted to up in a different place. But I wanted to bring it home to your home and just ask bring it home to your home and just ask bring it home to your home and just ask what do you want your daughters to grow what do you want your daughters to grow what do you want your daughters to grow up and say about you? up and say about you? up and say about you? >> Oh wow. You know Becca in the book had >> Oh wow. You know Becca in the book had >> Oh wow. You know Becca in the book had she I think she writes the last chapter she I think she writes the last chapter she I think she writes the last chapter um there's a chapter called redefining um there's a chapter called redefining um there's a chapter called redefining the good life. I think it's the last the good life. I think it's the last the good life. I think it's the last chapter u maybe it's the second to last chapter u maybe it's the second to last chapter u maybe it's the second to last chapter but it was really helpful for me chapter but it was really helpful for me chapter but it was really helpful for me to read that of um you know what am I to read that of um you know what am I to read that of um you know what am I looking for? what is success looking for? what is success looking for? what is success uh you know at the end of the day and uh you know at the end of the day and uh you know at the end of the day and [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] I would love you know I would love for I would love you know I would love for I would love you know I would love for my my kids to to know the Lord um but I my my kids to to know the Lord um but I my my kids to to know the Lord um but I would hope my kids would hope my kids would hope my kids would um would um would um would see somebody who would see somebody who would see somebody who didn't take themselves so seriously didn't take themselves so seriously didn't take themselves so seriously would be able to laugh and cry would be able to laugh and cry would be able to laugh and cry um to be available able but not to make um to be available able but not to make um to be available able but not to make them the center of of their you know them the center of of their you know them the center of of their you know because I think you can fail in that because I think you can fail in that because I think you can fail in that sense. Um to try to encourage them to

sense. Um to try to encourage them to sense. Um to try to encourage them to enjoy the beauties and wonders of this enjoy the beauties and wonders of this enjoy the beauties and wonders of this world. I um I don't do it perfectly. I world. I um I don't do it perfectly. I world. I um I don't do it perfectly. I don't I don't near perfectly but I would don't I don't near perfectly but I would don't I don't near perfectly but I would hope my kids would see see that and that hope my kids would see see that and that hope my kids would see see that and that and and and in the process love their and and and in the process love their and and and in the process love their mom and um love them. I don't know. It's mom and um love them. I don't know. It's mom and um love them. I don't know. It's it's a hard question to ask. I mean, it's a hard question to ask. I mean, it's a hard question to ask. I mean, what would if I was to turn that on you, what would if I was to turn that on you, what would if I was to turn that on you, Colin, [laughter] Colin, [laughter] Colin, [laughter] the inter the interviewee to the the inter the interviewee to the the inter the interviewee to the interviewer, what would you say? What interviewer, what would you say? What interviewer, what would you say? What would what would you want your kids to I would what would you want your kids to I would what would you want your kids to I think there I think there is an element think there I think there is an element think there I think there is an element because of the public nature of our work because of the public nature of our work because of the public nature of our work in ministry that I would want them to in ministry that I would want them to in ministry that I would want them to say that there weren't two faces. There say that there weren't two faces. There say that there weren't two faces. There wasn't the face that everybody else got wasn't the face that everybody else got wasn't the face that everybody else got and the face that they got at home. and the face that they got at home. and the face that they got at home. Um, I Um, I Um, I I I one thing that is hard and I I bet I I one thing that is hard and I I bet I I one thing that is hard and I I bet it's hard for you in some similar ways it's hard for you in some similar ways it's hard for you in some similar ways just because of the nature of how things just because of the nature of how things just because of the nature of how things work in the 21st century. work in the 21st century. work in the 21st century. I wish they didn't see so much of the I wish they didn't see so much of the I wish they didn't see so much of the downside of my work. I wish they didn't downside of my work. I wish they didn't downside of my work. I wish they didn't see so much of the painful side of it.

see so much of the painful side of it. see so much of the painful side of it. Um, but it's just hard to completely Um, but it's just hard to completely Um, but it's just hard to completely shield them from that kind of stuff just shield them from that kind of stuff just shield them from that kind of stuff just given the way that ministry works today given the way that ministry works today given the way that ministry works today and the smartphones and and things like and the smartphones and and things like and the smartphones and and things like that and the nature of public criticism that and the nature of public criticism that and the nature of public criticism and and I wish that it's just it can be and and I wish that it's just it can be and and I wish that it's just it can be hard for them when you have a a parent hard for them when you have a a parent hard for them when you have a a parent who's in the public eye like that to be who's in the public eye like that to be who's in the public eye like that to be able to wonder why did why why do people able to wonder why did why why do people able to wonder why did why why do people not like my dad? [laughter] What is it? not like my dad? [laughter] What is it? not like my dad? [laughter] What is it? What is it? Why would cuz that's just What is it? Why would cuz that's just What is it? Why would cuz that's just not a normal thing that other kids have not a normal thing that other kids have not a normal thing that other kids have to deal with in the same in the same way to deal with in the same in the same way to deal with in the same in the same way there. So I guess I would just hope that there. So I guess I would just hope that there. So I guess I would just hope that they would see um yeah I guess there they would see um yeah I guess there they would see um yeah I guess there were some reasons maybe just legitimate were some reasons maybe just legitimate were some reasons maybe just legitimate disagreements like you talked about with disagreements like you talked about with disagreements like you talked about with your dad that people had with what my your dad that people had with what my your dad that people had with what my dad did and what he what he stood for. dad did and what he what he stood for. dad did and what he what he stood for. But if they could have known him, they But if they could have known him, they But if they could have known him, they would know that he really did love God. would know that he really did love God. would know that he really did love God. He really did love our mother and he He really did love our mother and he He really did love our mother and he really did love us. And Colin, what you really did love us. And Colin, what you really did love us. And Colin, what you said earlier is they're related is that said earlier is they're related is that said earlier is they're related is that if you integrity, right, it comes from if you integrity, right, it comes from if you integrity, right, it comes from the word integer, which is zero and one, the word integer, which is zero and one, the word integer, which is zero and one, which means to be the same in all which means to be the same in all which means to be the same in all places. I think that's such a huge deal, places. I think that's such a huge deal, places. I think that's such a huge deal, particularly for people who are in particularly for people who are in particularly for people who are in ministry. Um because the kids can sniff ministry. Um because the kids can sniff ministry. Um because the kids can sniff that out. And I've seen it where if it's that out. And I've seen it where if it's that out. And I've seen it where if it's dup if you're duplicitous, if you're one dup if you're duplicitous, if you're one dup if you're duplicitous, if you're one person uh in the public, another person, person uh in the public, another person, person uh in the public, another person, they see right through that. And I just they see right through that. And I just they see right through that. And I just think that's so so so important so that think that's so so so important so that think that's so so so important so that when they see the criticism, when they when they see the criticism, when they when they see the criticism, when they see the the you know the there's a see the the you know the there's a see the the you know the there's a Christian subculture that can be uh

Christian subculture that can be uh Christian subculture that can be uh self-righteous that can have be there's self-righteous that can have be there's self-righteous that can have be there's there can be fakeness, they're going to there can be fakeness, they're going to there can be fakeness, they're going to see it and see it and see it and they're going to have to ask the they're going to have to ask the they're going to have to ask the question, okay, is this really question, okay, is this really question, okay, is this really Christianity or is this you know the Christianity or is this you know the Christianity or is this you know the fact that Christians are flawed people fact that Christians are flawed people fact that Christians are flawed people and therefore it's going to be flawed. I and therefore it's going to be flawed. I and therefore it's going to be flawed. I mean, we this is we could have a whole mean, we this is we could have a whole mean, we this is we could have a whole another conversation on deconstruction, another conversation on deconstruction, another conversation on deconstruction, why you deconstruct and stuff and um why you deconstruct and stuff and um why you deconstruct and stuff and um where you thought you you knew something where you thought you you knew something where you thought you you knew something and you're like, well, no, this is not and you're like, well, no, this is not and you're like, well, no, this is not what it is. I think part of it is as what it is. I think part of it is as what it is. I think part of it is as though though though figuring out what is real faith and real figuring out what is real faith and real figuring out what is real faith and real grace and real change and what's grace and real change and what's grace and real change and what's actually the the sinful kind of um actually the the sinful kind of um actually the the sinful kind of um uh aspects of the human nature. And they uh aspects of the human nature. And they uh aspects of the human nature. And they they're going to see that with you first they're going to see that with you first they're going to see that with you first because you're the first example. But if because you're the first example. But if because you're the first example. But if you're if you have integrity, I think it you're if you have integrity, I think it you're if you have integrity, I think it helps them be able to like parse the helps them be able to like parse the helps them be able to like parse the culture in that sense. That's such a culture in that sense. That's such a culture in that sense. That's such a good point. good point. good point. >> Integrity, not perfection. >> Integrity, not perfection. >> Integrity, not perfection. >> Yeah. And that's where the apology >> Yeah. And that's where the apology >> Yeah. And that's where the apology apologizing, that's where the repentance apologizing, that's where the repentance apologizing, that's where the repentance comes in there as well. Because if you comes in there as well. Because if you comes in there as well. Because if you try to maintain that somehow you you are try to maintain that somehow you you are try to maintain that somehow you you are perfect in all these ways. It's just perfect in all these ways. It's just perfect in all these ways. It's just impossible. And it breeds the impossible. And it breeds the impossible. And it breeds the inevitability of judgment and hypocrisy.

inevitability of judgment and hypocrisy. inevitability of judgment and hypocrisy. Um just as it's a mask. It's not it's Um just as it's a mask. It's not it's Um just as it's a mask. It's not it's not real. I think it's possible to all not real. I think it's possible to all not real. I think it's possible to all to to always be asking forgiveness all to to always be asking forgiveness all to to always be asking forgiveness all the time. I think somebody asked me that the time. I think somebody asked me that the time. I think somebody asked me that recently. I think it's possible, but for recently. I think it's possible, but for recently. I think it's possible, but for my personal heart and and my background, my personal heart and and my background, my personal heart and and my background, it's not. I don't do it enough. And uh I it's not. I don't do it enough. And uh I it's not. I don't do it enough. And uh I think you have to kind of assess think you have to kind of assess think you have to kind of assess yourself because there's a type of yourself because there's a type of yourself because there's a type of person who might be over like that, but person who might be over like that, but person who might be over like that, but I I don't think that's the main problem I I don't think that's the main problem I I don't think that's the main problem we have. we have. we have. >> I Well, I don't think it's the main >> I Well, I don't think it's the main >> I Well, I don't think it's the main problem we have. I don't I definitely problem we have. I don't I definitely problem we have. I don't I definitely don't think it's my main problem. don't think it's my main problem. don't think it's my main problem. [laughter] So, that that's what I'm [laughter] So, that that's what I'm [laughter] So, that that's what I'm that's what I'm getting at. I'm I'm not that's what I'm getting at. I'm I'm not that's what I'm getting at. I'm I'm not going to be apt to worship my kids as if going to be apt to worship my kids as if going to be apt to worship my kids as if they are the the judge and the end all they are the the judge and the end all they are the the judge and the end all and be all of all things. I'm just more and be all of all things. I'm just more and be all of all things. I'm just more likely to get upset at them and then as likely to get upset at them and then as likely to get upset at them and then as I'm getting upset at them realize, oh, I'm getting upset at them realize, oh, I'm getting upset at them realize, oh, that was that was about me. That wasn't that was that was about me. That wasn't that was that was about me. That wasn't about them. And so, yeah, I I see what about them. And so, yeah, I I see what about them. And so, yeah, I I see what you're saying. It would be easy to flip you're saying. It would be easy to flip you're saying. It would be easy to flip that and use that in a different way. that and use that in a different way. that and use that in a different way. But well, there's a lot of good advice But well, there's a lot of good advice But well, there's a lot of good advice and more than that, good news in um this and more than that, good news in um this and more than that, good news in um this book, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, book, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, book, Talking to Kids About Hard Things, Honest Conversations with When Life Gets Honest Conversations with When Life Gets Honest Conversations with When Life Gets Complicated with Rebecca Hannah. And Complicated with Rebecca Hannah. And Complicated with Rebecca Hannah. And again, also in the book that Michael again, also in the book that Michael again, also in the book that Michael here wrote with Timothy Keller, the here wrote with Timothy Keller, the here wrote with Timothy Keller, the stories we live by, seven cultural myths stories we live by, seven cultural myths stories we live by, seven cultural myths that fail us, and the story that never that fail us, and the story that never that fail us, and the story that never will, new [music] from Zeran. Michael, will, new [music] from Zeran. Michael, will, new [music] from Zeran. Michael, grateful for you, your friendship, um grateful for you, your friendship, um grateful for you, your friendship, um and these these works.

and these these works. and these these works. >> Yeah, thanks. I mean a lot of the works >> Yeah, thanks. I mean a lot of the works >> Yeah, thanks. I mean a lot of the works also came [music] through interactions also came [music] through interactions also came [music] through interactions with you and the people at the Killer with you and the people at the Killer with you and the people at the Killer Center and um very grateful for all Center and um very grateful for all Center and um very grateful for all those relationships and uh this time. So those relationships and uh this time. So those relationships and uh this time. So appreciate it Colin means a lot. [music] Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up [music] for my newsletter, head sign up [music] for my newsletter, head sign up [music] for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast [music] platform so favorite podcast [music] platform so favorite podcast [music] platform so others can join the conversation. Until others can join the conversation. Until others can join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to next time, remember, when we're bound to next time, remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we [music] abound in hope.