Why the Modern World Looks So Drab | The Ezra Klein Show

Why is everything so Why is everything so gray and boring now? Why is everything so the gray and boring now? Why is everything so the gray and boring now? Why is everything so the same? These same? These same? These coffee shops—they all coffee shops—they all coffee shops—they all look the same. look the same. look the same. The architecture looks The architecture looks The architecture looks standardized, standardized, standardized, the buildings are faceless, the buildings are faceless, the buildings are faceless, the cars are the cars are the cars are indistinguishable. And on indistinguishable. And on indistinguishable. And on the other hand, you have the other hand, you have Trump's gilded Oval Office, its Trump's gilded Oval Office, its fictional arch, its fictional arch, its fictional arch, its garish vision of a reflecting garish vision of a reflecting garish vision of a reflecting pool pool pool . Whatever . Whatever . Whatever you say about you say about you say about Donald Trump, he Donald Trump, he Donald Trump, he and the modern right have and the modern right have and the modern right have their own theory of beauty. Not their own theory of beauty. Not their own theory of beauty. Not my theory of beauty, but a my theory of beauty, but a my theory of beauty, but a theory. For some theory. For some theory. For some time now, I've been wanting to do a time now, I've been wanting to do a time now, I've been wanting to do a show about this question show about this question , which many , which many , which many other people ask and which other people ask and which other people ask and which also concerns me. Is also concerns me. Is also concerns me. Is the world getting the world getting the world getting uglier? And if uglier? And if uglier? And if so, why? Why do we so, why? Why do we so, why? Why do we design so much design so much design so much that looks that looks that looks so boring or, so boring or, so boring or, conversely, so daring? conversely, so daring? conversely, so daring? And at this moment, when And at this moment, when And at this moment, when the right has a clear the right has a clear the right has a clear theory of beauty, does the theory of beauty, does the theory of beauty, does the left even have any left even have any left even have any answer? Debbie answer? Debbie answer? Debbie Millman teaches at Millman teaches at Millman teaches at the School of Visual the School of Visual the School of Visual Arts in New York. Arts in New York. Arts in New York. She is a long-time She is a long-time She is a long-time graphic graphic graphic brand designer. She has brand designer. She has brand designer. She has updated logos updated logos updated logos for companies such for companies such for companies such as Burger King, 7-Up, and as Burger King, 7-Up, and as Burger King, 7-Up, and Häagen-Dazs. And for over 20 Häagen-Dazs. And for over 20 Häagen-Dazs. And for over 20 years, she has hosted a years, she has hosted a years, she has hosted a podcast called podcast called podcast called Design Matters, where she Design Matters, where she Design Matters, where she talks to talks to talks to creative people about creative people about creative people about design. She is with design. She is with design. She is with us now. Debbie Millman, us now. Debbie Millman, us now. Debbie Millman, welcome to the welcome to the welcome to the show.

show. show. Thank you, Ezra. I am very Thank you, Ezra. I am very Thank you, Ezra. I am very pleased to be here. pleased to be here. pleased to be here. So, over the last couple of So, over the last couple of So, over the last couple of years, I think years, I think years, I think I've read or I've read or I've read or reviewed, well, a reviewed, well, a reviewed, well, a dozen essays about dozen essays about dozen essays about why things are getting why things are getting why things are getting uglier. And I uglier. And I uglier. And I just read your just read your just read your piece called "Is the piece called "Is the world getting world getting world getting uglier?" So, is it uglier?" So, is it uglier?" So, is it happening? happening? happening? It depends on It depends on It depends on who you ask. who you ask. who you ask. I'm asking you. I'm asking you. In my opinion, it is becoming more In my opinion, it is becoming more vulgar. To some vulgar. To some vulgar. To some extent, ugliness extent, ugliness extent, ugliness can be very can be very can be very intentional. intentional. Vulgarity is accidental because it is not accidental because it is not accidental because it is not intentional. No one intentional. No one intentional. No one really sets out to really sets out to really sets out to do do do anything truly anything truly anything truly vulgar. A certain vulgar. A certain vulgar. A certain ugliness can ugliness can ugliness can be perceived through the be perceived through the be perceived through the prism of trends as prism of trends as prism of trends as something glamorous, something glamorous, something glamorous, sexy, interesting, sexy, interesting, sexy, interesting, or rebellious. But or rebellious. But or rebellious. But vulgarity—it's vulgarity—it's vulgarity—it's always pretty always pretty always pretty awful, and I think that's the awful, and I think that's the awful, and I think that's the same word to same word to same word to describe where we're describe where we're describe where we're headed. headed. headed. Give me some Give me some Give me some examples of this examples of this examples of this vulgarity.

vulgarity. Well, Cybertruck. There's really Well, Cybertruck. There's really no need for the no need for the no need for the car to look car to look car to look so obtrusive so obtrusive so obtrusive and pointless. Housing, and pointless. Housing, and pointless. Housing, where houses are now being built where houses are now being built where houses are now being built that once that once sat harmoniously on sat harmoniously on lots with front and lots with front and lots with front and back yards, back yards, back yards, perhaps with small perhaps with small perhaps with small walkways on either side, are walkways on either side, are walkways on either side, are now being squeezed into the now being squeezed into the now being squeezed into the lot so that there's lot so that there's lot so that there's only 6 or only 6 or only 6 or 7 inches left. grass between 7 inches left. grass between 7 inches left. grass between the house and the sidewalk. the house and the sidewalk. We see this in clothing, We see this in clothing, especially in especially in especially in Generation Z fashion, which Generation Z fashion, which Generation Z fashion, which I know the New York Times I know the New York Times I know the New York Times writes about quite a bit. writes about quite a bit. writes about quite a bit. And if I'm And if I'm And if I'm an expert in anything, it's an expert in anything, it's an expert in anything, it's Generation Z fashion. Generation Z fashion. But this Generation But this Generation Z fashion is not eternal. Fashion, by Z fashion is not eternal. Fashion, by Z fashion is not eternal. Fashion, by its very nature, is a its very nature, is a its very nature, is a form of self-expression form of self-expression form of self-expression that has an expiration date that has an expiration date that has an expiration date . Or . Or . Or at least the date of the pause. at least the date of the pause. at least the date of the pause. It may It may It may come back, but it come back, but it come back, but it will go out will go out will go out of fashion for a while. Some of this is of fashion for a while. Some of this is of fashion for a while. Some of this is instructive, and some of it is instructive, and some of it is just fashion trends.

just fashion trends. Whereas houses, Whereas houses, cars, cars, cars, transportation, airplanes, and transportation, airplanes, and transportation, airplanes, and similar things similar things similar things typically don't typically don't typically don't change that often change that often change that often in how they in how they in how they fundamentally fundamentally fundamentally look and look and look and work. work. How to distinguish, and I How to distinguish, and I know this is the know this is the know this is the oldest and oldest and oldest and most complex question most complex question most complex question of taste? But what's vulgar to of taste? But what's vulgar to of taste? But what's vulgar to one woman one woman one woman is is is interesting to another, what's interesting to another, what's interesting to another, what's ugly to one ugly to one is "oh, that's a is "oh, that's a is "oh, that's a cool cyberpunk cool cyberpunk truck" to another. truck" to another. Mhm. I think a lot of it has to do Mhm. I think a lot of it has to do with with with proportions. And in many proportions. And in many proportions. And in many ways, proportions are ways, proportions are ways, proportions are related to related to related to mathematics. So there are mathematics. So there are mathematics. So there are things that are simply more things that are simply more things that are simply more lyrically beautiful because lyrically beautiful because lyrically beautiful because they are harmonious in they are harmonious in they are harmonious in proportion. And proportion. And proportion. And in general, people can in general, people can in general, people can appreciate when something is out of appreciate when something is out of appreciate when something is out of proportion without proportion without proportion without knowing anything about knowing anything about knowing anything about math, whether it's a math, whether it's a math, whether it's a building, or a building, or a building, or a car, or a coffee car, or a coffee car, or a coffee cup. Therefore, if something is cup. Therefore, if something is cup. Therefore, if something is out of proportion, it out of proportion, it out of proportion, it makes us makes us makes us feel feel feel disoriented. It disoriented. It disoriented. It could be could be could be the disproportion of a the disproportion of a the disproportion of a bag, a skateboard, it bag, a skateboard, it bag, a skateboard, it could be the could be the could be the disproportion of disproportion of disproportion of anything. But anything. But anything. But things essentially things essentially things essentially make us make us make us feel something. Everything makes feel something. Everything makes feel something. Everything makes us feel something. And us feel something. And us feel something. And when something is out of when something is out of when something is out of proportion, it changes the proportion, it changes the proportion, it changes the DNA around us.

DNA around us. I am very interested in how we notice what how we notice what how we notice what we feel from the we feel from the environment or environment or objects around us. objects around us. I always thought a I always thought a big reason for all the big reason for all the Marie Kondo craze a few Marie Kondo craze a few years ago was that she years ago was that she years ago was that she was a was a was a real genius at real genius at real genius at giving people a practice. giving people a practice. giving people a practice. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. notice how they notice how they notice how they feel about their feel about their feel about their things. things. things. That's right. That's right. That's right. People used to tell People used to tell People used to tell others to clean up. others to clean up. others to clean up. What she What she What she suggested is a suggested is a suggested is a way of saying: you way of saying: you way of saying: you can tune can tune can tune into how your into how your into how your environment makes you environment makes you environment makes you feel. But here too, feel. But here too, feel. But here too, I think you I think you I think you run into the run into the run into the issue that a lot of what issue that a lot of what issue that a lot of what we now we now we now consider beautiful consider beautiful was disproportionate when it was built or designed was disproportionate when it was built or designed . It . It . It was daring. It was was daring. It was was daring. It was aggressive. Therefore, the first aggressive. Therefore, the first aggressive. Therefore, the first reviews about it were reviews about it were reviews about it were very negative. very negative. very negative. So, you come So, you come So, you come to this interesting to this interesting to this interesting question: can you question: can you question: can you trust what you trust what you trust what you are feeling in this are feeling in this are feeling in this moment? moment? moment? This sentence alone This sentence alone This sentence alone could be talked about for a very could be talked about for a very could be talked about for a very long time. I want to long time. I want to long time. I want to go back to the go back to the go back to the first part of what first part of what first part of what you said about you said about you said about how things affect how things affect how things affect our feelings. We are our feelings. We are social mammals, and social mammals, and social mammals, and every aspect of our every aspect of our every aspect of our socialization in socialization in socialization in perceiving the perceiving the perceiving the world around us world around us world around us is based on the objects is based on the objects is based on the objects and things that and things that and things that surround us. And this goes back to ancient surround us. And this goes back to ancient surround us. And this goes back to ancient times. This times. This times. This goes back 50,000 goes back 50,000 goes back 50,000 years, when we years, when we years, when we began creating

began creating began creating symbols to symbols to symbols to denote our denote our denote our reality. So, the reality. So, the reality. So, the very first very first very first signs were what signs were what signs were what we saw around us we saw around us we saw around us . So we started . So we started . So we started painting on painting on painting on cave walls. After that, we cave walls. After that, we cave walls. After that, we began to develop and began to develop and began to develop and unite into unite into unite into tribes. What was the tribes. What was the tribes. What was the first thing we did first thing we did first thing we did when we united into when we united into when we united into tribes? We marked tribes? We marked tribes? We marked our affiliation and our affiliation and our affiliation and our beliefs with a our beliefs with a our beliefs with a symbol. I symbol. I symbol. I belong to this belong to this belong to this religion, you belong religion, you belong religion, you belong to that religion. We to that religion. We to that religion. We signal this and signal this and signal this and broadcast this through the broadcast this through the broadcast this through the use of this use of this use of this symbol, and it means just as much symbol, and it means just as much symbol, and it means just as much to people to people to people who are part of the same who are part of the same who are part of the same tribe as it does tribe as it does tribe as it does to those who are not. And this to those who are not. And this to those who are not. And this safety in numbers, safety in numbers, safety in numbers, this confidence that this confidence that we all believe the same thing we all believe the same thing we all believe the same thing , , , means that we're not means that we're not means that we're not going to kill going to kill going to kill each other because we all each other because we all each other because we all believe it. This believe it. This believe it. This allowed us allowed us allowed us to thrive and to thrive and to thrive and create larger, create larger, create larger, stronger social stronger social stronger social bonds when we were bonds when we were bonds when we were in those groups. So, is this the in those groups. So, is this the in those groups. So, is this the essence of how we essence of how we essence of how we feel around feel around feel around symbols? Since symbols? Since symbols? Since prehistoric times, prehistoric times, prehistoric times, we have been taught and we have been taught and we have been taught and socialized socialized socialized to perceive the world through to perceive the world through to perceive the world through symbols, objects, and symbols, objects, and symbols, objects, and now brands. So, now brands. So, now brands. So, if you wear a certain if you wear a certain if you wear a certain type of sneaker, you are type of sneaker, you are part of the Nike tribe. A part of the Nike tribe. A certain handbag—and it certain handbag—and it signals that signals that signals that you are a wealthy woman who you are a wealthy woman who you are a wealthy woman who bought it on Rodeo bought it on Rodeo Drive. We are even Drive. We are even Drive. We are even doing it now. This is doing it now. This is doing it now. This is very, very interesting to very, very interesting to very, very interesting to me in the context of

me in the context of me in the context of plastic surgery. plastic surgery. We can change our nose , lips, or buttocks , lips, or buttocks , lips, or buttocks to look a to look a to look a certain way, certain way, certain way, signaling to others: signaling to others: signaling to others: these values, what we these values, what we these values, what we consider beautiful, consider beautiful, consider beautiful, look attractive look attractive look attractive to me and you. to me and you. And you know I know, And you know I know, you know I you know I you know I know, we both know, we both know, we both did it and we both did it and we both did it and we both look good. look good. look good. Now, it works the same way Now, it works the same way Now, it works the same way for people who for people who for people who don't like don't like don't like big buttocks or, big buttocks or, big buttocks or, say, a certain type of say, a certain type of say, a certain type of veneers. So I veneers. So I veneers. So I think we need to think we need to think we need to look back at the look back at the look back at the trajectory of our trajectory of our trajectory of our evolution, because evolution, because evolution, because appearance, size, appearance, size, appearance, size, fashion, hairstyle—all of this fashion, hairstyle—all of this fashion, hairstyle—all of this has a lot to do has a lot to do has a lot to do with the politics of our with the politics of our with the politics of our time, religion, and time, religion, and time, religion, and socialization. socialization. For you, what is good For you, what is good design and what is design and what is bad? bad? Good design Good design makes me makes me makes me feel better feel better feel better about what I do about what I do about what I do and how I do it. For and how I do it. For and how I do it. For me, it's completely me, it's completely me, it's completely subjective. Here is my subjective. Here is my subjective. Here is my specific definition of what specific definition of what good design is to me. It good design is to me. It improves my mood.

improves my mood. improves my mood. For the world, I believe For the world, I believe For the world, I believe good design good design good design makes the world a better place. makes the world a better place. People's experiences, the way People's experiences, the way they move through they move through they move through the world—it's easy, it's the world—it's easy, it's the world—it's easy, it's respectful. When I was respectful. When I was respectful. When I was flying to New York, I flying to New York, I flying to New York, I was at the Los was at the Los Angeles airport and stood in a Angeles airport and stood in a Angeles airport and stood in a strange line where I had to strange line where I had to strange line where I had to push past a bunch of push past a bunch of push past a bunch of people in three lines people in three lines people in three lines waiting to waiting to waiting to put things in a put things in a put things in a container and then container and then container and then push it onto the conveyor push it onto the conveyor push it onto the conveyor belt. belt. There is no There is no sense or sense or sense or logic in the arrangement of these three queues. So, even logic in the arrangement of these three queues. So, even logic in the arrangement of these three queues. So, even if you're if you're if you're ahead, you're not ahead, you're not ahead, you're not first. It all depends first. It all depends first. It all depends on who came on who came on who came first, and who first, and who first, and who controls it. And then you controls it. And then you controls it. And then you have to have to have to push your push your push your things through as quickly as possible so they things through as quickly as possible so they things through as quickly as possible so they get through. And I asked get through. And I asked get through. And I asked this man, because I this man, because I this man, because I knew I would be knew I would be knew I would be here today, "Who here today, "Who here today, "Who designed this? This is a designed this? This is a designed this? This is a billion- billion- billion- dollar system that's in dollar system that's in dollar system that's in airports all over airports all over airports all over the world, and it's the worst the world, and it's the worst the world, and it's the worst designed system designed system I've ever I've ever I've ever seen. Where people are fighting to seen. Where people are fighting to seen. Where people are fighting to squeeze squeeze squeeze their bags into their bags into their bags into the line. They're fighting to be the the line. They're fighting to be the next to go. It next to go. It was just a was just a was just a design design design disaster. I think disaster. I think design that doesn't design that doesn't design that doesn't respect people is respect people is bad. I think bad. I think bad. I think greedy design is greedy design is bad. I think bad. I think bad. I think immoral design immoral design is bad design.

is bad design. What I've been thinking about as I've been What I've been thinking about as I've been reading and reading and reading and thinking about thinking about thinking about these essays for a while now these essays for a while now these essays for a while now -- my -- my -- my team and I wanted to team and I wanted to team and I wanted to do a do a do a little show about this. Is little show about this. Is little show about this. Is the world as a whole getting the world as a whole getting the world as a whole getting uglier? There's like uglier? There's like uglier? There's like two two two different lines of criticism intersecting different lines of criticism intersecting different lines of criticism intersecting at the same time. One is the at the same time. One is the at the same time. One is the criticism that you're criticism that you're criticism that you're offering here, that offering here, that offering here, that the world is getting uglier. the world is getting uglier. the world is getting uglier. The world The world The world makes you makes you makes you feel certain things. And the feelings feel certain things. And the feelings feel certain things. And the feelings that it makes you feel are that it makes you feel are bad. It's negative. bad. It's negative. bad. It's negative. emotional tone in emotional tone in emotional tone in Buddhist Buddhist Buddhist terminology. And the other terminology. And the other terminology. And the other line is that the world line is that the world line is that the world is not becoming what I would is not becoming what I would is not becoming what I would call call call uglier, although uglier, although uglier, although people often use people often use people often use that word. Greyer. It's that word. Greyer. It's that word. Greyer. It's becoming more and more becoming more and more becoming more and more monotonous. It's monotonous. It's monotonous. It's increasingly not increasingly not increasingly not making you making you making you feel anything. So one feel anything. So one feel anything. So one of the, I think, of the, I think, of the, I think, seminal essays is seminal essays is seminal essays is the article in N+1 from 2023. the article in N+1 from 2023. the article in N+1 from 2023. And it's about the ' And it's about the ' And it's about the ' grey sublime.'" The grey sublime.'" The grey sublime.'" The Gray Sublime " Gray Sublime " brings together brings together brings together home-made furniture home-made furniture , consumer , consumer , consumer electronics, electronics, electronics, municipal municipal municipal infrastructure, and infrastructure, and infrastructure, and commercial commercial commercial graphic design—an graphic design—an ocean of things ocean of things ocean of things so uniform so uniform so uniform and unimaginative that and unimaginative that and unimaginative that a world filled with them a world filled with them a world filled with them can feel like a can feel like a can feel like a digital digital digital rendering. One of the rendering. One of the rendering. One of the reasons I reasons I reasons I like the Cybertruck is that like the Cybertruck is that like the Cybertruck is that I I I don't find it don't find it don't find it beautiful. The way it beautiful. The way it makes me feel is not a makes me feel is not a pleasant one. But it does make pleasant one. But it does make me feel something.

me feel something. Compared to everything Compared to everything Compared to everything else on the road else on the road else on the road right now, it reflects right now, it reflects right now, it reflects someone's vision. I believe someone's vision. I believe someone's vision. I believe someone, somewhere, found someone, somewhere, found someone, somewhere, found it beautiful. it beautiful. it beautiful. Yes, there are people who Yes, there are people who Yes, there are people who buy it. So I guess buy it. So I guess buy it. So I guess a lot of it a lot of it a lot of it comes down to taste, and comes down to taste, and comes down to taste, and also also also how well things how well things how well things fit fit fit together. together. together. The Cybertruck's thing is that it The Cybertruck's thing is that it The Cybertruck's thing is that it disrupts the integrity of disrupts the integrity of disrupts the integrity of the landscape. the landscape. Hmm. Hmm. Maybe there's Maybe there's Maybe there's some some some strategy behind it, but I'm not strategy behind it, but I'm not strategy behind it, but I'm not entirely sure what it is entirely sure what it is entirely sure what it is . Is it to . Is it to . Is it to attract attention? Is it to attract attention? Is it to attract attention? Is it to intimidate? What's in intimidate? What's in intimidate? What's in it? intention? And when I it? intention? And when I it? intention? And when I think about the world think about the world think about the world getting uglier in its getting uglier in its getting uglier in its purest form, is it purest form, is it purest form, is it getting uglier because of getting uglier because of getting uglier because of our poor our poor our poor design choices design choices , or because we , or because we , or because we don't care about anyone but don't care about anyone but don't care about anyone but ourselves? And is ourselves? And is ourselves? And is the world getting uglier the world getting uglier the world getting uglier because we're because we're because we're behaving uglier? behaving uglier?

When you see When you see people behaving people behaving people behaving uglier, it's inevitable that uglier, it's inevitable that uglier, it's inevitable that it's going to spill over into it's going to spill over into it's going to spill over into everyone else's behavior, everyone else's behavior, everyone else's behavior, because we think, if it because we think, if it because we think, if it can happen here, can happen here, can happen here, if someone can get away with it if someone can get away with it if someone can get away with it , why can't , why can't , why can't I? I? Well, I want to be clear about Well, I want to be clear about my my my position, because I find position, because I find position, because I find the Cybertruck an interesting the Cybertruck an interesting the Cybertruck an interesting subject for subject for subject for discussion, but I want discussion, but I want discussion, but I want to agree that it's to agree that it's to agree that it's ugly. It's not to ugly. It's not to ugly. It's not to my taste. my taste. my taste. But you see, it's important for you But you see, it's important for you to say it. to say it. A trend, right? A trend, right? A trend, right? I think you can I think you can I think you can imagine two axes. The first imagine two axes. The first is whether something makes is whether something makes is whether something makes you feel any way you feel any way , how strongly , how strongly , how strongly it affects you. And it affects you. And it affects you. And the second is whether that the second is whether that the second is whether that feeling is positive feeling is positive feeling is positive or negative. But there's or negative. But there's or negative. But there's so much around us right now so much around us right now so much around us right now , so many , so many , so many apartment apartment apartment buildings. I don't find buildings. I don't find buildings. I don't find them ugly. I them ugly. I them ugly. I find them find them find them neutral. I do neutral. I do neutral. I do n't feel anything n't feel anything n't feel anything when I look at them. when I look at them. when I look at them. They're dumb to me. And so They're dumb to me. And so They're dumb to me. And so many many many cars are dumb to me cars are dumb to me cars are dumb to me . . When there's no When there's no real intention in something, real intention in something, real intention in something, when it's created when it's created when it's created without any sense of without any sense of without any sense of purpose or strategy or purpose or strategy or purpose or strategy or respect for its surroundings. And respect for its surroundings. And respect for its surroundings. And that, to me, is worse that, to me, is worse that, to me, is worse than just than just than just ugliness. And ugliness. And ugliness. And maybe even worse maybe even worse than vulgarity.

than vulgarity. I think we've been I think we've been in a period where a in a period where a in a period where a huge part of the huge part of the huge part of the world around us, world around us, from fashion to the design of from fashion to the design of from fashion to the design of apartments, cars, apartments, cars, apartments, cars, and the places we and the places we and the places we stay. People stay. People stay. People describe it in describe it in different ways, but it was a kind of different ways, but it was a kind of smoothing out. But smoothing out. But now I see a reaction now I see a reaction now I see a reaction to it. Don't you? You to it. Don't you? You to it. Don't you? You talk about it a little bit talk about it a little bit talk about it a little bit in your essay, I think in your essay, I think in your essay, I think . You mention this . You mention this . You mention this movement towards vulgarity, movement towards vulgarity, movement towards vulgarity, towards ostentatious style. You towards ostentatious style. You towards ostentatious style. You can think of can think of can think of Donald Trump, who Donald Trump, who Donald Trump, who decorated the Oval decorated the Oval decorated the Oval Office with gold. Office with gold. Office with gold. You can think of this You can think of this You can think of this very noticeable very noticeable very noticeable Gen Z fashion style. Gen Z fashion style. Gen Z fashion style. You can think of the Cybertruck. You can think of the Cybertruck. You can think of the Cybertruck. Recently, I Recently, I Recently, I mean, this has mean, this has mean, this has been discussed been discussed been discussed elsewhere, there's been a movement elsewhere, there's been a movement elsewhere, there's been a movement towards more towards more towards more maximalist maximalist maximalist design. We've moved away design. We've moved away design. We've moved away from from from Luxmaxing. Luxmaxing. Luxmaxing. So, look, yes, So, look, yes, So, look, yes, Luxmaxing is actually Luxmaxing is actually Luxmaxing is actually another another another example. But I was example. But I was example. But I was actually actually actually referring to decor. And so you referring to decor. And so you referring to decor. And so you write that we live in an write that we live in an write that we live in an attention economy, and attention economy, and attention economy, and attention rewards attention rewards attention rewards extremes. That the extremes. That the extremes. That the more design more design more design is rewarded for being is rewarded for being is rewarded for being instantly instantly instantly noticeable, noticeable, noticeable, recognizable, and recognizable, and recognizable, and ready to be shared, ready to be shared, ready to be shared, the easier it is to lose the easier it is to lose the easier it is to lose sight of proportion, sight of proportion, sight of proportion, purpose, and the people who purpose, and the people who purpose, and the people who have to live with it. But have to live with it. But have to live with it. But I think maybe the other I think maybe the other I think maybe the other side of it is that we do side of it is that we do side of it is that we do live in an live in an live in an attention economy, and attention economy, and attention economy, and the more everything the more everything the more everything is fed to us by is fed to us by is fed to us by algorithms, the algorithms, the algorithms, the more everything seems the more everything seems the more everything seems the same everywhere. You same everywhere. You same everywhere. You go into a coffee shop, and go into a coffee shop, and go into a coffee shop, and by the way, this point by the way, this point by the way, this point was covered by was covered by was covered by the writer Kyle the writer Kyle the writer Kyle Chaika. You go into a Chaika. You go into a Chaika. You go into a coffee shop in New York, or coffee shop in New York, or coffee shop in New York, or Los Angeles, or Mexico City Los Angeles, or Mexico City , or Buenos Aires, or , or Buenos Aires, or , or Buenos Aires, or Tokyo, and they all have their Tokyo, and they all have their Tokyo, and they all have their own kind of the same own kind of the same own kind of the same coffee shops. And suddenly, coffee shops. And suddenly, coffee shops. And suddenly, I mean, you can't even tell the I mean, you can't even tell the I mean, you can't even tell the difference between difference between difference between airports anymore.

airports anymore. airports anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You walk into an You walk into an You walk into an airport, and it could airport, and it could airport, and it could be any be any be any airport in any airport in any airport in any city in the world. city in the world. city in the world. So what do you think So what do you think So what do you think about the relationship and the about the relationship and the about the relationship and the tension between those tension between those tension between those two things? two things? two things? A sense of sameness A sense of sameness that maybe people that maybe people that maybe people reject, but it reject, but it reject, but it creates—I think it creates—I think it creates—I think it creates a movement toward creates a movement toward creates a movement toward what you describe as a what you describe as a what you describe as a kind of vulgar kind of vulgar kind of vulgar or arrogant response or arrogant response or arrogant response to that. to that. Well, I mean, if Well, I mean, if you look at the you look at the you look at the original original original visual language of the iPod, you visual language of the iPod, you visual language of the iPod, you know, six weeks know, six weeks know, six weeks after 9/11, Apple after 9/11, Apple after 9/11, Apple introduced the first introduced the first introduced the first iPod, and it came with iPod, and it came with iPod, and it came with white headphones. white headphones. white headphones. I didn't know it was I didn't know it was I didn't know it was six weeks after six weeks after six weeks after 9/11. Those are two things 9/11. Those are two things 9/11. Those are two things that I never that I never that I never connected in my connected in my connected in my head. head. head. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a Yeah. Yeah. And there was a Yeah. Yeah. And there was a really interesting really interesting really interesting period of time when period of time when period of time when people started buying people started buying people started buying iPods and were able to iPods and were able to iPods and were able to show their show their show their belonging belonging belonging with these white with these white with these white headphones. It was headphones. It was headphones. It was actually really actually really actually really brilliant, because the iPod brilliant, because the iPod brilliant, because the iPod wasn't hanging out there, wasn't hanging out there, wasn't hanging out there, you know, over your clothes. you know, over your clothes. you know, over your clothes. It was in your pocket, but It was in your pocket, but It was in your pocket, but the headphones gave the headphones gave the headphones gave you away, and it was like, you away, and it was like, you away, and it was like, I know you know I know you know I know you know we're early we're early we're early adopters here, and people were adopters here, and people were adopters here, and people were really proud of that.

really proud of that. really proud of that. Extremely Extremely Extremely minimalist. minimalist. minimalist. Extremely Extremely Extremely minimalist, to minimalist, to minimalist, to really be able to really be able to really be able to cut through cut through cut through all the cacophony of that all the cacophony of that all the cacophony of that time. It still time. It still time. It still had a real had a real had a real minimalist feel to it, and now minimalist feel to it, and now minimalist feel to it, and now , 26 years later, , 26 years later, , 26 years later, it's still the dominant language. it's still the dominant language. So much so that every So much so that every other tech other tech other tech company has adopted company has adopted company has adopted that same style. So that same style. So that same style. So they all look a they all look a they all look a certain way because people certain way because people certain way because people have expectations have expectations have expectations of what perfection should of what perfection should of what perfection should look like look like look like . All . All . All tech tech tech companies until recently -- companies until recently -- I think Samsung is starting to I think Samsung is starting to I think Samsung is starting to move away from move away from move away from that visual language a little bit, that visual language a little bit, that visual language a little bit, because they first because they first because they first appointed a appointed a appointed a president of design, president of design, president of design, Mauro Porcini. So Mauro Porcini. So Mauro Porcini. So he's making some he's making some he's making some changes, but before that, we're changes, but before that, we're changes, but before that, we're talking about 25 years of talking about 25 years of talking about 25 years of technology that had a technology that had a technology that had a very specific very specific very specific look because everyone look because everyone look because everyone wanted to look their wanted to look their wanted to look their best. And so it'll best. And so it'll best. And so it'll be interesting to see be interesting to see be interesting to see how it looks now. will change how it looks now. will change how it looks now. will change with new people at the with new people at the with new people at the helm, both at Apple and helm, both at Apple and helm, both at Apple and Samsung.

Samsung. If you don't subscribe If you don't subscribe to The New York Times, we have to The New York Times, we have to The New York Times, we have news for you. news for you. news for you. You can now You can now explore the Times for free, without explore the Times for free, without any restrictions, any restrictions, any restrictions, for the first for the first for the first month on The New month on The New month on The New York Times app. You say that York Times app. You say that York Times app. You say that design is, quote, " design is, quote, " the deliberate expression of the deliberate expression of the deliberate expression of intent." Tell intent." Tell intent." Tell me about that. me about that. So to do that, So to do that, I have to go back to I have to go back to I have to go back to the question: What is a the question: What is a the question: What is a brand? A brand is an brand? A brand is an brand? A brand is an artificially created artificially created artificially created meaning. We meaning. We meaning. We agree that a agree that a agree that a crucifix crucifix crucifix means something. You and I means something. You and I means something. You and I both agree. both agree. both agree. Can we disagree Can we disagree about Christianity as a about Christianity as a brand? brand? brand? Well, that's just because I Well, that's just because I Well, that's just because I want to get down to the want to get down to the want to get down to the most fundamental most fundamental most fundamental level. One of the level. One of the level. One of the earliest brands. earliest brands. earliest brands. Although Hinduism and Although Hinduism and Although Hinduism and Jainism came Jainism came Jainism came much earlier, but much earlier, but much earlier, but anyway, anyway, anyway, let's take let's take let's take something that many people something that many people something that many people know. It's an artificially know. It's an artificially know. It's an artificially created meaning.

created meaning. created meaning. This cross could This cross could This cross could mean anything. We mean anything. We mean anything. We agree that this agree that this agree that this crucifix, this symbol crucifix, this symbol crucifix, this symbol that people wear, that people wear, that people wear, that is prayed to and that is prayed to and that is prayed to and worshipped, worshipped, worshipped, means something. Design is means something. Design is means something. Design is what communicates that what communicates that what communicates that difference. That's what difference. That's what difference. That's what design is. To me, that's the design is. To me, that's the design is. To me, that's the ultimate ultimate ultimate definition of design. definition of design. It's the communication of It's the communication of difference, difference, difference, created through created through created through the production of meaning the production of meaning . . So it's interesting to see So it's interesting to see you go from you go from you go from the question of intention the question of intention the question of intention right into branding, right into branding, right into branding, because I because I because I agree with your agree with your agree with your idea that the way you idea that the way you idea that the way you build a build a build a brand's reputation or the meaning of brand's reputation or the meaning of brand's reputation or the meaning of something on a large something on a large something on a large scale is really scale is really scale is really constructive. But constructive. But constructive. But one of the things that I one of the things that I one of the things that I think is at work here, think is at work here, think is at work here, and I want to explore this a little bit and I want to explore this a little bit and I want to explore this a little bit , is that , is that , is that brands brands brands want to be different want to be different want to be different from each other. from each other. from each other. Mmm. They have to. Mmm. They have to. Mmm. They have to. And I think that the And I think that the And I think that the frustration that people frustration that people frustration that people often have is that often have is that often have is that they're they're they're not not not differentiated enough now.

differentiated enough now. differentiated enough now. So I think there's a So I think there's a So I think there's a general feeling— general feeling— you can argue about whether you can argue about whether you can argue about whether that's true, but a lot of that's true, but a lot of that's true, but a lot of people think that 30 or 40 people think that 30 or 40 people think that 30 or 40 years ago years ago years ago cars were more cars were more cars were more beautiful and beautiful and beautiful and interesting in interesting in interesting in design than they are design than they are design than they are today. A today. A today. A friend of mine recently had his friend of mine recently had his friend of mine recently had his 40th birthday, and as 40th birthday, and as 40th birthday, and as a gift his a gift his a gift his partner rented partner rented partner rented him a classic him a classic him a classic cars. He had the opportunity cars. He had the opportunity cars. He had the opportunity to drive an to drive an to drive an old Mustang. I think old Mustang. I think old Mustang. I think people like old Mustangs people like old Mustangs people like old Mustangs better better better than new ones. I think that's a than new ones. I think that's a than new ones. I think that's a common phenomenon. But common phenomenon. But common phenomenon. But one of the reasons why one of the reasons why one of the reasons why so many cars are so so many cars are so so many cars are so similar is because similar is because similar is because we've we've we've learned a lot about learned a lot about learned a lot about how to make them how to make them how to make them aerodynamic. aerodynamic. aerodynamic. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We know about how We know about how objects move through objects move through objects move through space at space at space at speed, things that we speed, things that we speed, things that we didn't know with as much didn't know with as much didn't know with as much certainty back then, and certainty back then, and certainty back then, and we're pushing those we're pushing those we're pushing those things through things through fuel regulations, fuel regulations, incentives for incentives for incentives for electric vehicles and so on electric vehicles and so on electric vehicles and so on , pushing , pushing , pushing car companies in a car companies in a car companies in a certain direction. And certain direction. And certain direction. And now cars now cars now cars look more look more look more streamlined because that's very streamlined because that's very streamlined because that's very important for fuel important for fuel important for fuel efficiency and efficiency and efficiency and safety, and there are other safety, and there are other safety, and there are other factors that are at play here that are factors that are at play here that are factors that are at play here that are pushing everything pushing everything pushing everything in a certain direction. And in a certain direction. And in a certain direction. And so one thing that so one thing that so one thing that I thought about when I thought about when I thought about when I read your I read your I read your definition of design definition of design definition of design as a conscious as a conscious as a conscious expression of intent is that expression of intent is that our intent now our intent now includes, you know, includes, you know, includes, you know, a lot more than a lot more than a lot more than just beauty or just beauty or just beauty or just aesthetics, just aesthetics, just aesthetics, right? We know right? We know right? We know more about how more about how more about how to make buildings to make buildings to make buildings energy efficient.

energy efficient. energy efficient. We know more about We know more about We know more about how to make sure how to make sure how to make sure they don't collapse in they don't collapse in they don't collapse in earthquakes. earthquakes. earthquakes. And all of these things And all of these things And all of these things impose a impose a impose a structure structure structure that in that in that in some periods of some periods of some periods of the past that we the past that we the past that we often, you know, often, you know, often, you know, glorify for their glorify for their glorify for their great aesthetics, didn't have to work great aesthetics, didn't have to work great aesthetics, didn't have to work so so so hard to optimize. And hard to optimize. And hard to optimize. And so one of the reasons so one of the reasons so one of the reasons why the world seems why the world seems why the world seems a little more a little more a little more uniform to people in terms of how we uniform to people in terms of how we uniform to people in terms of how we make make make material material material objects is actually objects is actually objects is actually that we that we that we optimize things that optimize things that optimize things that really force us really force us really force us to be uniform. We to be uniform. We to be uniform. We know things about the world know things about the world know things about the world that have forced us to that have forced us to that have forced us to design objects design objects design objects in ways that are more in ways that are more in ways that are more consistent across consistent across consistent across brands. brands. Yeah, and I think it's Yeah, and I think it's just a matter of time, because just a matter of time, because just a matter of time, because once we master once we master once we master these new ergonomic these new ergonomic these new ergonomic building methods, the building methods, the building methods, the next natural next natural next natural step is going to be step is going to be step is going to be maximizing maximizing maximizing value through beauty, value through beauty, value through beauty, because you want to be because you want to be because you want to be different. different. We look We look at functionality first, at functionality first, at functionality first, and then we look at aspiration. and then we look at aspiration.

and then we look at aspiration. And that's... While you And that's... While you And that's... While you were talking, I thought of a were talking, I thought of a were talking, I thought of a funny funny funny example that may or example that may or example that may or may not make may not make may not make sense, but I remember sense, but I remember sense, but I remember the days when my grandmother the days when my grandmother the days when my grandmother wore graces. Very wore graces. Very wore graces. Very ugly, very ugly, very ugly, very effective, very, very effective, very, very effective, very, very ugly. Now we have ugly. Now we have ugly. Now we have Spanx and Skims, which essentially Spanx and Skims, which essentially Spanx and Skims, which essentially do the same thing or do the same thing or do the same thing or better, helping better, helping better, helping to shape the female to shape the female to shape the female figure, but much figure, but much figure, but much sexier and sexier and sexier and more beautiful. So I think more beautiful. So I think more beautiful. So I think it's only a matter of time, it's only a matter of time, it's only a matter of time, because that's the system because that's the system because that's the system we live in. We're we live in. We're we live in. We're always trying to always trying to always trying to improve and improve and improve and create something create something create something better than what was better than what was better than what was before. before. One of the interesting things that came up when the producers and I that came up when the producers and I were preparing for this were preparing for this episode: my producer episode: my producer episode: my producer lives in a much lives in a much lives in a much older house, and older house, and older house, and it's really beautiful. it's really beautiful. it's really beautiful. It's like, you know, taking It's like, you know, taking It's like, you know, taking a picture from the outside. There's a picture from the outside. There's a picture from the outside. There's this this this beautiful tree growing in front of it. I beautiful tree growing in front of it. I beautiful tree growing in front of it. I felt something. I've never felt something. I've never felt something. I've never seen her house, seen her house, seen her house, because we live in a different because we live in a different because we live in a different place. It has a soul. place. It has a soul. And she said that And she said that part of herself part of herself part of herself really envies really envies really envies people who live in people who live in people who live in these somewhat impersonal " these somewhat impersonal " pop-mansions" that are pop-mansions" that are pop-mansions" that are better suited better suited better suited for children, have for children, have for children, have much more much more much more space, have more space, have more space, have more rational rational rational use of it, have, use of it, have, use of it, have, you know, central you know, central you know, central air conditioning and air conditioning and air conditioning and a lot of other things that are a lot of other things that are a lot of other things that are optimized for optimized for optimized for other purposes. And I other purposes. And I other purposes. And I just think that just think that just think that a lot of things in life are like a lot of things in life are like a lot of things in life are like that. I think when that. I think when that. I think when you make life you make life you make life seamless, it seamless, it seamless, it starts starts starts to lose something, even if to lose something, even if to lose something, even if everything else is the same, everything else is the same, everything else is the same, even if sometimes the even if sometimes the even if sometimes the quality of the product is higher.

quality of the product is higher. And I fully accept that And I fully accept that you can have—and I've experienced it myself you can have—and I've experienced it myself you can have—and I've experienced it myself —places, —places, —places, houses, cars, everything, houses, cars, everything, houses, cars, everything, right? You can have right? You can have right? You can have places where someone's places where someone's places where someone's idea of ​​beauty and idea of ​​beauty and idea of ​​beauty and someone's idea of someone's idea of someone's idea of functionality functionality functionality have merged into a beautiful have merged into a beautiful have merged into a beautiful union. But I really union. But I really union. But I really think that part of the think that part of the think that part of the nausea that nausea that nausea that we're talking about comes we're talking about comes we're talking about comes from people from people from people living in a world that's living in a world that's living in a world that's been "flattened" for been "flattened" for been "flattened" for them. So that on the one them. So that on the one them. So that on the one hand it works really hand it works really hand it works really well, but on the other hand it doesn't well, but on the other hand it doesn't well, but on the other hand it doesn't feel alive to them feel alive to them feel alive to them . It's just . It's just . It's just sort of flattened into sort of flattened into sort of flattened into some kind of soulless some kind of soulless some kind of soulless service. service. For example? For example, For example? For example, could you... I'd could you... I'd could you... I'd like to know what you mean by like to know what you mean by like to know what you mean by that. that. that. I'm not a vinyl collector myself I'm not a vinyl collector myself I'm not a vinyl collector myself . Hmm. But I know . Hmm. But I know . Hmm. But I know a lot of people who are. a lot of people who are. And that's partly because of And that's partly because of the physicality, this the physicality, this the physicality, this hassle of having to get up, hassle of having to get up, hassle of having to get up, turn the record turn the record , set , set , set the needle correctly. And these the needle correctly. And these the needle correctly. And these record collections mean record collections mean record collections mean more to people than more to people than more to people than their their their Spotify libraries. And people will say, " Spotify libraries. And people will say, " Oh, the sound is warmer."

Oh, the sound is warmer." Oh, the sound is warmer." Sure, it's a little Sure, it's a little Sure, it's a little warmer. I don't think that's what warmer. I don't think that's what warmer. I don't think that's what does the does the does the main work. main work. main work. The work is that you're The work is that you're The work is that you're in a in a in a physical, tactile physical, tactile physical, tactile relationship where... relationship where... relationship where... It's like reading a It's like reading a It's like reading a paper book versus a paper book versus a paper book versus a Kindle. Kindle. Kindle. Yeah, exactly. Here I have a Yeah, exactly. Here I have a Yeah, exactly. Here I have a big library on my big library on my big library on my Kindle and a big Kindle and a big Kindle and a big library of paper library of paper library of paper books. books. books. It's similar. It's similar. It's similar. So there are areas where the So there are areas where the So there are areas where the fact that the world demands fact that the world demands fact that the world demands things from you that are things from you that are things from you that are maybe a little less maybe a little less maybe a little less convenient. You know, the convenient. You know, the convenient. You know, the fact that my Kindle is fact that my Kindle is fact that my Kindle is always with me and I always with me and I always with me and I can look at all can look at all can look at all my notes on my my notes on my my notes on my phone, it's more convenient phone, it's more convenient . And when I really . And when I really . And when I really like a book, I like a book, I like a book, I often just buy it often just buy it often just buy it in paper form. in paper form. in paper form. I mean, I mean, I mean, I've actually I've actually I've actually moved more towards moved more towards moved more towards paper books now, because paper books now, because paper books now, because owning them is owning them is owning them is important to me, important to me, important to me, even though their even though their even though their functionality functionality functionality objectively a little objectively a little objectively a little worse. worse. worse. Yeah, I agree 100 Yeah, I agree 100 %. %. %. So how do you feel about So how do you feel about So how do you feel about those areas where there's a those areas where there's a those areas where there's a conflict? conflict? Well, I think we Well, I think we live in a time where there's live in a time where there's live in a time where there's a lot of tension a lot of tension a lot of tension between convenience and between convenience and between convenience and individuality. And individuality. And individuality. And we give up so we give up so we give up so much of our much of our much of our individuality and individuality and individuality and privacy for privacy for privacy for convenience. That's something convenience. That's something convenience. That's something we have to we have to voluntarily accept. I don't know voluntarily accept. I don't know if there's anything wrong with if there's anything wrong with if there's anything wrong with having a little bit of having a little bit of having a little bit of both, but I both, but I both, but I think if you think if you think if you go to extremes in go to extremes in go to extremes in one direction or the other, you one direction or the other, you one direction or the other, you lose a lot. I lose a lot. I lose a lot. I mean, I mean, I mean, I like being like being like being able to read able to read able to read anything anywhere, have anything anywhere, have anything anywhere, have all my notes in one

all my notes in one all my notes in one place and have 45 books in my place and have 45 books in my place and have 45 books in my pocket. But I pocket. But I pocket. But I also like also like also like curling up curling up curling up with a book and feeling with a book and feeling with a book and feeling the pages and being able to the pages and being able to the pages and being able to flip through them. I also flip through them. I also flip through them. I also really miss really miss album sleeves. Those album sleeves. Those little booklets little booklets that used to come that used to come that used to come with with with band photos. band photos. band photos. By the way, I also By the way, I also By the way, I also have a vinyl have a vinyl have a vinyl record collection. So, she, record collection. So, she, record collection. So, she, she's going to go with me she's going to go with me she's going to go with me somewhere else. I, somewhere else. I, somewhere else. I, I need a really I need a really I need a really big tomb where big tomb where big tomb where I can put all these things I can put all these things I can put all these things that nobody else that nobody else that nobody else needs, but I can't needs, but I can't needs, but I can't get rid of them get rid of them get rid of them even on my deathbed even on my deathbed even on my deathbed . So I think . So I think . So I think it's a question of where, it's a question of where, it's a question of where, where are you on where are you on where are you on that scale? that scale? There was this YouTube video There was this YouTube video by Shion Quirk about by Shion Quirk about by Shion Quirk about why things are getting why things are getting why things are getting uglier. He uglier. He uglier. He walks around walks around walks around London London London looking at looking at looking at lampposts and lampposts and lampposts and sewers that sewers that sewers that were built in were built in were built in another era, and then he another era, and then he another era, and then he compares them to what they're compares them to what they're compares them to what they're building now. And building now. And building now. And it's not that the it's not that the it's not that the new ones are bad. They new ones are bad. They new ones are bad. They work like work like work like lampposts, but they're lampposts, but they're lampposts, but they're monotonous. And the monotonous. And the monotonous. And the old ones had these old ones had these old ones had these weird fish on them, and the new ones are weird fish on them, and the new ones are weird fish on them, and the new ones are just very just very just very functional. And I functional. And I functional. And I was watching this video, and was watching this video, and was watching this video, and there was a part about there was a part about there was a part about air conditioners.

air conditioners. air conditioners. Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. me. So I'll show me. So I'll show me. So I'll show you this because I think you this because I think you this because I think it might be it might be it might be relevant to some of the relevant to some of the relevant to some of the things we're things we're things we're talking about. talking about. talking about. Look at this Look at this Look at this air conditioner. I think air conditioner. I think air conditioner. I think that says that says that says more about the modern world more about the modern world more about the modern world than anything. other. than anything. other. than anything. other. More than phones More than phones More than phones or social media. or social media. or social media. It's an amazing It's an amazing It's an amazing technology. One that technology. One that technology. One that has changed the world and has changed the world and has changed the world and improved the lives of improved the lives of improved the lives of billions of people. That's why billions of people. That's why billions of people. That's why we're putting them we're putting them we're putting them literally everywhere. But literally everywhere. But literally everywhere. But it's ugly. Ugly it's ugly. Ugly because it doesn't express the because it doesn't express the because it doesn't express the belief that ordinary belief that ordinary belief that ordinary things can be things can be things can be beautiful. But worse beautiful. But worse beautiful. But worse than ugly is than ugly is than ugly is boring. Sure, it boring. Sure, it would cost a little more to make it more beautiful. It takes a little time and It takes a little time and care and attention, but care and attention, but care and attention, but these days, these days, these days, we seem to be more interested in making we seem to be more interested in making we seem to be more interested in making money than in making money than in making money than in making things beautiful. And things beautiful. And things beautiful. And maybe that's okay maybe that's okay . . First of all, this is an First of all, this is an open appeal open appeal open appeal to James Dyson. to James Dyson. Yeah. Yeah. I interviewed I interviewed I interviewed James Dyson James Dyson James Dyson last year. And one last year. And one last year. And one of the things I of the things I of the things I learned in my learned in my learned in my research is that research is that research is that all of all of all of James Dyson's innovations are James Dyson's innovations are James Dyson's innovations are related to air.

related to air. Vacuum cleaners, hair dryers, etc. Who better Who better to to to improve improve improve air conditioning than James Dyson? He's air conditioning than James Dyson? He's air conditioning than James Dyson? He's made the most beautiful made the most beautiful made the most beautiful vacuum cleaners, the most beautiful vacuum cleaners, the most beautiful vacuum cleaners, the most beautiful hair dryers. James, we hair dryers. James, we hair dryers. James, we need you. But I don't need you. But I don't need you. But I don't think they're boring. think they're boring. think they're boring. I disagree. I I disagree. I I disagree. I think they're think they're think they're intrusive. Boring is intrusive. Boring is intrusive. Boring is something that you something that you something that you stop noticing over time. Intrusive is stop noticing over time. Intrusive is stop noticing over time. Intrusive is something that's noticeable something that's noticeable something that's noticeable and annoying. and annoying. and annoying. They really are annoying. They really are annoying. One thing I thought about was the way he ended the point he ended the point about cost. I about cost. I about cost. I agree with you. One thing people agree with you. One thing people agree with you. One thing people don't like about don't like about don't like about window window window air conditioners is that they're air conditioners is that they're air conditioners is that they're intrusive. But intrusive. But intrusive. But window air conditioners window air conditioners window air conditioners tend to be in tend to be in tend to be in older buildings or older buildings or older buildings or they're for people who don't they're for people who don't they're for people who don't have the money to have the money to have the money to install install install central central central air conditioning. air conditioning. You can find models You can find models that look better that look better that look better or worse. I haven't seen or worse. I haven't seen or worse. I haven't seen any that are really any that are really any that are really good, but price good, but price good, but price really does matter here. really does matter here. So that's where So that's where I think there's often a I think there's often a I think there's often a tension: you can tension: you can tension: you can invest money in invest money in invest money in the design of things. But the design of things. But the design of things. But if you have to if you have to if you have to mass-produce them, mass-produce them, mass-produce them, they often they often they often look boring. Or they look boring. Or they look boring. Or they can look can look can look really intrusive.

really intrusive. There's a tension in There's a tension in a lot of products, a lot of products, a lot of products, at least between their at least between their at least between their form and their function. function. form and their function. function. So one criticism So one criticism I hear a lot about I hear a lot about I hear a lot about this conversation is that this conversation is that this conversation is that it's a little it's a little it's a little elitist. Which, yes, elitist. Which, yes, elitist. Which, yes, beauty is a nice beauty is a nice beauty is a nice touch. But there's a touch. But there's a touch. But there's a reason why the reason why the reason why the old housing old housing old housing stock that's being preserved stock that's being preserved stock that's being preserved isn't what isn't what isn't what poor people lived in. It seems like poor people lived in. It seems like poor people lived in. It seems like most of it has been torn down, and most of it has been torn down, and most of it has been torn down, and now there are these now there are these now there are these beautiful townhouses in beautiful townhouses in beautiful townhouses in Georgetown because people Georgetown because people Georgetown because people have put a lot have put a lot have put a lot more money into it. So, more money into it. So, more money into it. So, to the extent that this to the extent that this to the extent that this is about mass- is about mass- is about mass- producing what producing what producing what used to be a luxury. used to be a luxury. used to be a luxury. And when you go And when you go And when you go mass- mass- mass- producing, things producing, things producing, things tend to lose tend to lose tend to lose their character. their character. their character. I think, again, I think, again, I think, again, it all depends on it all depends on it all depends on the intention. Many years the intention. Many years the intention. Many years ago, Target launched a ago, Target launched a ago, Target launched a great line great line great line called "Design for called "Design for called "Design for Everyone." They Everyone." They Everyone." They collaborated with collaborated with collaborated with Isaac Mizrahi and Isaac Mizrahi and Isaac Mizrahi and other great other great other great designers to designers to designers to create transitional create transitional create transitional collections that you could collections that you could collections that you could buy at Target for a buy at Target for a buy at Target for a lower price, but lower price, but lower price, but were still were still were still made with care.

made with care. I think Muji is another I think Muji is another company where the things company where the things company where the things you buy are made you buy are made you buy are made with care, and they're not with care, and they're not with care, and they're not too expensive. too expensive. There are alternatives . Many, many years . Many, many years . Many, many years ago, probably about ago, probably about ago, probably about ten years ago, I became ten years ago, I became ten years ago, I became obsessed with the idea that obsessed with the idea that obsessed with the idea that all shower caps were all shower caps were all shower caps were just awful. I just awful. I just awful. I mean, really mean, really mean, really grotesque. So I grotesque. So I grotesque. So I searched the Internet for searched the Internet for searched the Internet for alternatives and alternatives and alternatives and found a company found a company found a company called Shower Cap, s h h o w e r called Shower Cap, s h h o w e r called Shower Cap, s h h o w e r c a p. They made c a p. They made c a p. They made shower caps that were shower caps that were shower caps that were like turbans. And like turbans. And like turbans. And yes, they're a little more yes, they're a little more yes, they're a little more expensive than the expensive than the expensive than the standard standard standard plastic caps plastic caps plastic caps that come that come that come in a pack of three, but in a pack of three, but in a pack of three, but they last forever. And they're they last forever. And they're they last forever. And they're great. And suddenly you great. And suddenly you great. And suddenly you go from go from go from wearing wearing wearing something that looks like a fungus on your head that's something that looks like a fungus on your head that's something that looks like a fungus on your head that's been in the bathroom for been in the bathroom for been in the bathroom for who knows how who knows how who knows how long, to a beautifully long, to a beautifully long, to a beautifully made, made, made, stylish item stylish item stylish item that's not that that's not that that's not that expensive, but it expensive, but it expensive, but it means that someone means that someone means that someone took care of your took care of your took care of your dignity during this dignity during this dignity during this procedure, and someone procedure, and someone procedure, and someone who wanted more who wanted more who wanted more respect found them.

respect found them. So you can So you can find these things. find these things. find these things. They're not everywhere, but you They're not everywhere, but you They're not everywhere, but you have to look. There's have to look. There's something interesting about that, something interesting about that, because sometimes you hear the because sometimes you hear the because sometimes you hear the opposite. The explanation opposite. The explanation opposite. The explanation for why a lot of for why a lot of for why a lot of things things things look and look and look and feel worse today is that feel worse today is that feel worse today is that they've just become they've just become they've just become cheaper. And so we cheaper. And so we cheaper. And so we pay less pay less pay less attention to them. My team and I attention to them. My team and I attention to them. My team and I talked about in talked about in talked about in preparation how preparation how preparation how inherited furniture used to be a inherited furniture used to be a inherited furniture used to be a really really really important thing. People would important thing. People would inherit bedroom inherit bedroom sets from their sets from their sets from their grandparents all the time. The grandparents all the time. The grandparents all the time. The dining table. dining table. dining table. And now I think a lot of And now I think a lot of And now I think a lot of families are facing a families are facing a families are facing a problem: when problem: when problem: when older people pass away older people pass away older people pass away or move into or move into or move into smaller homes, they smaller homes, they smaller homes, they want to pass on what they want to pass on what they want to pass on what they had, what they had, what they had, what they valued and what was valued and what was valued and what was important to them, to important to them, to important to them, to their children. And their their children. And their their children. And their children don't want that. children don't want that. children don't want that. And one of the reasons And one of the reasons And one of the reasons they don't want that is because they don't want that is because they don't want that is because in that we in that we in that we made furniture much made furniture much made furniture much cheaper. And therefore, for cheaper. And therefore, for cheaper. And therefore, for a family, purchasing a a family, purchasing a a family, purchasing a bedroom set bedroom set bedroom set or a dining table or a dining table or a dining table is no longer such an is no longer such an is no longer such an incredible incredible incredible investment. After all, investment. After all, investment. After all, you can pick up something at IKEA you can pick up something at IKEA you can pick up something at IKEA without worrying too much about without worrying too much about without worrying too much about it, because it, because it, because you probably know that this is you probably know that this is you probably know that this is your first home and in your first home and in your first home and in a couple of years you will a couple of years you will a couple of years you will probably change everything probably change everything . And so, you know, in a . And so, you know, in a . And so, you know, in a strange way, when there strange way, when there strange way, when there was a bigger shortage, was a bigger shortage, was a bigger shortage, people had to be more mindful of what they people had to be more mindful of what they people had to be more mindful of what they were buying, were buying, were buying, to pay to pay to pay attention to it, like you just attention to it, like you just attention to it, like you just mentioned about the mentioned about the mentioned about the shower cap, more often. But shower cap, more often. But shower cap, more often. But when people know they'll when people know they'll when people know they'll only have a thing for only have a thing for only have a thing for a few years, when they a few years, when they a few years, when they know its know its know its obsolescence is

obsolescence is obsolescence is planned, planned, planned, Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Then maybe they don't Then maybe they don't Then maybe they don't treat it that way treat it that way because, you know, they because, you know, they because, you know, they subconsciously understand subconsciously understand : it's a temporary : it's a temporary : it's a temporary investment. He is a investment. He is a investment. He is a temporary guest in temporary guest in temporary guest in my home, so he my home, so he my home, so he shouldn't tell me much about shouldn't tell me much about shouldn't tell me much about me. me. I feel sorry for such I feel sorry for such people, because why not people, because why not people, because why not make sure that everything make sure that everything make sure that everything around you somehow around you somehow around you somehow reflects you, and it reflects you, and it reflects you, and it doesn't necessarily have to doesn't necessarily have to doesn't necessarily have to depend on the price of the depend on the price of the depend on the price of the thing. But I also thing. But I also thing. But I also feel that there is soul in feel that there is soul in feel that there is soul in inherited inherited inherited family furniture family furniture family furniture . Once upon a time . Once upon a time , 60 years ago, , 60 years ago, , 60 years ago, my grandmother sat at this table my grandmother sat at this table my grandmother sat at this table . Now I do . Now I do . Now I do n't need this table anymore n't need this table anymore n't need this table anymore , because for , because for , because for many reasons my many reasons my many reasons my wife wanted wife wanted wife wanted another one, but I don't want to another one, but I don't want to another one, but I don't want to get rid of it. So get rid of it. So get rid of it. So it was sitting in my it was sitting in my it was sitting in my basement, and my basement, and my basement, and my niece needed a niece needed a niece needed a dining table. So I'm dining table. So I'm dining table. So I'm sending her this sending her this sending her this table, and now she'll have table, and now she'll have table, and now she'll have her great- her great- her great- grandmother's dining table. For me, grandmother's dining table. For me, grandmother's dining table. For me, it's magic. For me, this is the it's magic. For me, this is the it's magic. For me, this is the meaning of life. That kind of meaning of life. That kind of meaning of life. That kind of continuity, when you can continuity, when you can continuity, when you can convey something that convey something that convey something that was in a family, like a was in a family, like a was in a family, like a dinner table where dinner table where dinner table where people gathered, ate, people gathered, ate, people gathered, ate, cried, argued, cried, argued, cried, argued, did whatever—it did whatever—it did whatever—it fills the thing with such fills the thing with such fills the thing with such deep meaning. And that's what deep meaning. And that's what deep meaning. And that's what I I I value most about the subjects. I'm value most about the subjects. I'm value most about the subjects. I'm a bit prone to a bit prone to a bit prone to hoarding things.

hoarding things. hoarding things. My wife would say My wife would say I'm a real I'm a real I'm a real junkie, but things junkie, but things junkie, but things matter. They are matter. They are matter. They are full of sentiments full of sentiments , emotions, memories. , emotions, memories. , emotions, memories. They...are a testament to They...are a testament to They...are a testament to life. For me, this is more life. For me, this is more life. For me, this is more important than anything important than anything important than anything else. else. Somewhere deep down, Somewhere deep down, as we talked, I as we talked, I as we talked, I was thinking about how different was thinking about how different was thinking about how different structures in our structures in our structures in our lives operate according to different lives operate according to different lives operate according to different logics. And there is the logic of logics. And there is the logic of logics. And there is the logic of markets. Markets love markets. Markets love markets. Markets love frictionless logic. frictionless logic. frictionless logic. Markets hate Markets hate Markets hate friction. Markets like friction. Markets like friction. Markets like things to be commodities things to be commodities . They like . They like . They like everything to be clear everything to be clear everything to be clear from a long distance. from a long distance. from a long distance. I was very touched a I was very touched a I was very touched a moment ago when you moment ago when you moment ago when you said that passing said that passing said that passing this table on to your this table on to your this table on to your niece seemed to niece seemed to niece seemed to be a reason to live; that being part be a reason to live; that being part be a reason to live; that being part of this family of this family of this family legacy has a legacy has a legacy has a value that far value that far value that far outweighs the value of outweighs the value of outweighs the value of the table if you were to, you know the table if you were to, you know , put it up for , put it up for , put it up for sale on eBay or sale on eBay or sale on eBay or somewhere else. And I somewhere else. And I somewhere else. And I think the criticism that think the criticism that think the criticism that I accept to some extent is that I accept to some extent is that market market logic is absorbing more and logic is absorbing more and logic is absorbing more and more more more aspects of our aspects of our aspects of our lives. And markets, as I lives. And markets, as I lives. And markets, as I said, said, said, don't really like don't really like don't really like specificity. So, specificity. So, specificity. So, I was thinking about houses.

I was thinking about houses. One of the measurable One of the measurable facts is facts is that people are increasingly that people are increasingly that people are increasingly painting their painting their painting their homes gray homes gray . . . Mm. Mm. Mm. There was a study about There was a study about There was a study about this in Washington, D.C. this in Washington, D.C. this in Washington, D.C. Sharp Sharp Sharp increase in the number of increase in the number of increase in the number of gray houses. This gray houses. This gray houses. This was dubbed the "color was dubbed the "color was dubbed the "color recession." And the reason for recession." And the reason for recession." And the reason for this is quite this is quite this is quite clear. So, clear. So, clear. So, almost a third of almost a third of almost a third of home sales in home sales in home sales in America in 2021 America in 2021 America in 2021 were to people who did were to people who did were to people who did not intend to live in it not intend to live in it not intend to live in it . The houses were either an . The houses were either an . The houses were either an investment investment investment tool or they tool or they tool or they were planned were planned were planned to be resold quickly. to be resold quickly. to be resold quickly. In 2021? In 2021? In 2021? Ovva. Ovva. Ovva. And so if you're And so if you're And so if you're looking at your home looking at your home looking at your home not as a place you're going to live in for not as a place you're going to live in for not as a place you're going to live in for 50 years, but 50 years, but 50 years, but as a property that you're as a property that you're as a property that you're trying to sell to trying to sell to trying to sell to someone else, and someone else, and someone else, and then maybe then maybe then maybe sell to someone else, sell to someone else, sell to someone else, or as a place you're or as a place you're or as a place you're only going to live in for a few only going to live in for a few only going to live in for a few years, because you're years, because you're years, because you're more mobile yourself, and you more mobile yourself, and you more mobile yourself, and you expect expect expect to only work in this to only work in this to only work in this job in Washington for job in Washington for job in Washington for , you know, four or , you know, four or five years, and then five years, and then five years, and then move back to move back to move back to Asheville, North Asheville, North Asheville, North Carolina, or somewhere Carolina, or somewhere Carolina, or somewhere else. Giving such a else. Giving such a else. Giving such a house house house individuality, individuality, individuality, right? Painting right? Painting right? Painting it yellow and it yellow and it yellow and green because you're a green because you're a green because you're a whimsical person whimsical person whimsical person who loves yellow and who loves yellow and who loves yellow and green is bad green is bad green is bad for the long-term for the long-term for the long-term resale value of resale value of resale value of the home.

the home. the home. Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. And even more than that, And even more than that, And even more than that, I grew up in a place with very I grew up in a place with very I grew up in a place with very strict strict strict homeowners associations where homeowners associations where homeowners associations where you weren't allowed to you weren't allowed to you weren't allowed to paint your house a paint your house a paint your house a lot of different lot of different lot of different colors because it could colors because it could colors because it could change the change the change the resale value of the houses resale value of the houses resale value of the houses around you. It around you. It around you. It wasn't even your fault. wasn't even your fault. wasn't even your fault. That's right. That's right. That's right. And the fact that everyone And the fact that everyone And the fact that everyone wanted to make sure wanted to make sure wanted to make sure that their house was an that their house was an that their house was an effectively liquid effectively liquid effectively liquid asset. asset. asset. Yes. Yes. And so there's this And so there's this market logic that market logic that market logic that can permeate more and can permeate more and can permeate more and more areas, and that's, more areas, and that's, more areas, and that's, you know, again, you know, again, you know, again, part of the trend toward part of the trend toward part of the trend toward uniformity. I'm uniformity. I'm uniformity. I'm curious whether curious whether curious whether this resonates with you this resonates with you this resonates with you or not. or not. Well, in many ways it Well, in many ways it brings us back to the idea of brings us back to the idea of brings us back to the idea of someone someone someone building a house building a house building a house so huge that so huge that so huge that it intrudes on the it intrudes on the it intrudes on the space of others, because that's what's being space of others, because that's what's being controlled here. And that's why controlled here. And that's why it looks it looks it looks ugly. I'm sad ugly. I'm sad ugly. I'm sad that so much is being blurred right now that so much is being blurred right now to eliminate what is to eliminate what is strange but also strange but also strange but also truly beautiful or truly beautiful or truly beautiful or very unique to just very unique to just very unique to just one person.

one person. Look at Look at the auctions the auctions the auctions held after held after held after the death of stars: someone the death of stars: someone the death of stars: someone wants their table wants their table wants their table or hat. Diane or hat. Diane or hat. Diane Keaton had an auction, her Keaton had an auction, her Keaton had an auction, her family put family put family put all of her clothes up for sale, and all of her clothes up for sale, and all of her clothes up for sale, and people were just hunting people were just hunting people were just hunting for her bolo hats for her bolo hats . So I think there's a really . So I think there's a really . So I think there's a really interesting thing that I want to interesting thing that I want to interesting thing that I want to explore: we still explore: we still explore: we still strive to express strive to express strive to express ourselves to stand out, ourselves to stand out, ourselves to stand out, but within certain limits. but within certain limits. So, if we are being So, if we are being urged to make urged to make urged to make our color our color our color palettes grayer, what does that palettes grayer, what does that palettes grayer, what does that mean for our mean for our mean for our ability ability ability to express ourselves through to express ourselves through to express ourselves through color? And when we color? And when we color? And when we restrain ourselves, how does it restrain ourselves, how does it restrain ourselves, how does it affect our affect our affect our creativity?

creativity? And what does this say about And what does this say about how we want to how we want to how we want to move through this world? move through this world? Returning to Returning to our previous our previous our previous axis: do you feel axis: do you feel axis: do you feel anything at all, and if anything at all, and if anything at all, and if so, what exactly do you so, what exactly do you so, what exactly do you feel? feel? Mhm. I have a friend whose I have a friend whose clothing style is clothing style is clothing style is designed to evoke designed to evoke designed to evoke feelings in other people feelings in other people . . Which ones exactly? Which ones exactly? Joy, Joy, Joy, whimsy, but it's whimsy, but it's whimsy, but it's very bright. very bright. Mhm. Mhm. When you walk with her, When you walk with her, When you walk with her, people pay attention, people pay attention, people pay attention, and she herself wants and she herself wants and she herself wants them to pay them to pay them to pay attention. And my style of attention. And my style of attention. And my style of dress—and the transition of dress—and the transition of dress—and the transition of this podcast to a this podcast to a this podcast to a video format caused video format caused video format caused me a lot of stress—is me a lot of stress—is aimed at aimed at aimed at not paying not paying not paying attention. I don't want attention. I don't want attention. I don't want you to think about my you to think about my you to think about my appearance. I want you to appearance. I want you to appearance. I want you to think, "that's think, "that's think, "that's not bad," and not bad," and not bad," and not mention it again. not mention it again. not mention it again. Yes. And there's this dimension: Yes. And there's this dimension: Yes. And there's this dimension: are you prepared for are you prepared for are you prepared for people to have their people to have their people to have their own opinions about you, own opinions about you, own opinions about you, right? What right? What right? What your home looks like, what you're your home looks like, what you're your home looks like, what you're wearing, how wearing, how wearing, how your things are decorated.

your things are decorated. Do you realize Do you realize that some people might that some people might that some people might love it and some might love it and some might hate it? Fashion and hate it? Fashion and hate it? Fashion and design can design can design can polarize polarize polarize society, but has society, but has society, but has our society become our society become culturally less culturally less ready for this? Is ready for this? Is ready for this? Is n't that right? People in it n't that right? People in it n't that right? People in it don't want to expose don't want to expose don't want to expose themselves to condemnation. They themselves to condemnation. They themselves to condemnation. They want to be want to be want to be looked at, deemed looked at, deemed looked at, deemed acceptable, and then acceptable, and then acceptable, and then looked away. looked away. I don't know if that's I don't know if that's possible, Ezra. And possible, Ezra. And possible, Ezra. And even when someone even when someone even when someone opposes opposes opposes being visible or being visible or being visible or loud, that choice is still a loud, that choice is still a choice. It's still a choice. It's still a conscious decision. conscious decision. Many years ago, my Many years ago, my father decided he would father decided he would father decided he would no longer wear no longer wear no longer wear Ralph Lauren Polo shirts because he Ralph Lauren Polo shirts because he Ralph Lauren Polo shirts because he didn't want to be a walking didn't want to be a walking didn't want to be a walking billboard for the billboard for the billboard for the brand. Do you understand? What brand. Do you understand? What brand. Do you understand? What did he do? I ca did he do? I ca did he do? I ca n't even say that n't even say that n't even say that without smiling. He without smiling. He without smiling. He pinned a pinned a pinned a flag badge over flag badge over flag badge over the logo. I say, " the logo. I say, " the logo. I say, " Dad, you just Dad, you just Dad, you just replaced one logo replaced one logo replaced one logo with another. Now you with another. Now you with another. Now you represent represent represent the United States on the United States on the United States on your shirt, on your shirt, on your shirt, on your polo. He didn't your polo. He didn't your polo. He didn't want to buy new ones, want to buy new ones, want to buy new ones, so he just replaced so he just replaced so he just replaced the logo, covered the the logo, covered the the logo, covered the Polo logo with a flag.

Polo logo with a flag. As soon as you see As soon as you see that flag, it that flag, it that flag, it means something. I've always, for means something. I've always, for means something. I've always, for the last 20 years, been the last 20 years, been the last 20 years, been kind of afraid to wear kind of afraid to wear kind of afraid to wear color. I always color. I always color. I always wear only black. wear only black. wear only black. Always. Always. Everything else Always. Always. Everything else Always. Always. Everything else seems too seems too seems too bright. I feel like people bright. I feel like people bright. I feel like people are looking at me. are looking at me. are looking at me. I mean, everything I mean, everything I mean, everything goes with everything. It goes with everything. It goes with everything. It blends in. My blends in. My blends in. My nephew first nephew first nephew first noticed it many, noticed it many, many years ago. many years ago. many years ago. He said, "Hey, why do He said, "Hey, why do He said, "Hey, why do you always wear black you always wear black ?" I said, "Oh, it's just ?" I said, "Oh, it's just ?" I said, "Oh, it's just easier. I easier. I easier. I don't need to don't need to don't need to think about much. Everything think about much. Everything think about much. Everything goes with everything." He goes with everything." He goes with everything." He says, "It's weird." And yeah, says, "It's weird." And yeah, says, "It's weird." And yeah, it's a little weird, but it's it's a little weird, but it's it's a little weird, but it's so much easier for me. And I so much easier for me. And I so much easier for me. And I also feel like also feel like also feel like for you guys in the for you guys in the for you guys in the podcast world, all of a sudden, this whole podcast world, all of a sudden, this whole podcast world, all of a sudden, this whole video thing—it's video thing—it's video thing—it's terrifying. But I really terrifying. But I really terrifying. But I really think that every think that every think that every decision we make is a conscious one. decision we make is a conscious one. decision we make is a conscious one. We expose ourselves in a We expose ourselves in a We expose ourselves in a way that we're way that we're way that we're perceived in a certain perceived in a certain perceived in a certain way. And the clothes, and the way. And the clothes, and the way. And the clothes, and the objects, and the cars, and the objects, and the cars, and the objects, and the cars, and the houses, and the sneakers, and the houses, and the sneakers, and the houses, and the sneakers, and the bags—all of these things express who bags—all of these things express who bags—all of these things express who we are. we are. we are. You know what? I'm not You know what? I'm not You know what? I'm not sure people sure people sure people put a lot of put a lot of put a lot of meaning into the Ralph Lauren brand, meaning into the Ralph Lauren brand, meaning into the Ralph Lauren brand, so that might not be the so that might not be the so that might not be the best example.

best example. best example. But when people But when people But when people wear a wear a wear a flag badge now, flag badge now, flag badge now, especially in the especially in the especially in the post-9/11 world, and at post-9/11 world, and at post-9/11 world, and at that time it was a that time it was a that time it was a very, very, very very, very, very very, very, very specific statement specific statement specific statement about themselves that maybe wouldn't have had as much about themselves that maybe wouldn't have had as much meaning in other times meaning in other times when it was just, when it was just, when it was just, you know, people had you know, people had you know, people had American flags American flags American flags or a picture of or a picture of or a picture of Roosevelt hanging Roosevelt hanging Roosevelt hanging in their house. Or, if in their house. Or, if in their house. Or, if you look at it separately, what it you look at it separately, what it meant to have a meant to have a meant to have a portrait of Mao or portrait of Mao or portrait of Mao or Stalin in in those Stalin in in those Stalin in in those societies, was societies, was societies, was different from different from different from societies where it societies where it societies where it was much more of a was much more of a was much more of a personal personal personal choice whether to wear them or choice whether to wear them or choice whether to wear them or not. not. not. You're talking about the You're talking about the You're talking about the emotional resonance emotional resonance emotional resonance of the Ralph Lauren brand and the of the Ralph Lauren brand and the of the Ralph Lauren brand and the flag badge being flag badge being flag badge being different. different. No, what I'm talking about , what I mean is that , what I mean is that , what I mean is that we've become so we've become so we've become so accustomed to seeing accustomed to seeing accustomed to seeing the logic of branding as the logic of branding as the logic of branding as corporate—as something corporate—as something corporations are trying to do— that even when a symbol that even when a symbol that even when a symbol comes from a comes from a comes from a non-profit, non-profit, when it's when it's seen as seen as seen as symbolizing symbolizing symbolizing something completely different about a something completely different about a something completely different about a person, we almost person, we almost person, we almost see them all on the see them all on the see them all on the same plane now. You know same plane now. You know , when I was a kid, I , when I was a kid, I , when I was a kid, I wore a gold "hai"—it wore a gold "hai"—it 's a Jewish symbol.

's a Jewish symbol. 's a Jewish symbol. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I wore it at a And I wore it at a And I wore it at a time when I time when I time when I was quite was quite was quite religious as a kid. I religious as a kid. I religious as a kid. I guess I wanted to guess I wanted to guess I wanted to be a rabbi, and that be a rabbi, and that be a rabbi, and that meant nothing to me meant nothing to me meant nothing to me at all what it came to at all what it came to at all what it came to mean a mean a mean a few years later when I few years later when I few years later when I bought my first bought my first bought my first pair of Nikes or pair of Nikes or pair of Nikes or tried to dress in a tried to dress in a tried to dress in a way that didn't make me stand out. way that didn't make me stand out. other children. other children. Right. Right. Right. It's like I was expressing something It's like I was expressing something It's like I was expressing something more personal. I more personal. I more personal. I mean, it mean, it mean, it existed publicly, existed publicly, existed publicly, but it wasn't, and I but it wasn't, and I but it wasn't, and I think they're different think they're different think they're different things. And it's funny, because things. And it's funny, because things. And it's funny, because I didn't think our I didn't think our I didn't think our conversation would go that way, conversation would go that way, conversation would go that way, but I but I but I think it's a really think it's a really think it's a really interesting twist interesting twist interesting twist where logic or where logic or where logic or ways of perceiving the ways of perceiving the ways of perceiving the world that are supposed to be world that are supposed to be world that are supposed to be separate separate separate actually start to actually start to actually start to converge. And I converge. And I converge. And I want to touch on want to touch on want to touch on the public and the public and the public and private spheres here. And private spheres here. And private spheres here. And maybe a good maybe a good maybe a good way to do that is way to do that is this. We sent this. We sent this. We sent you an email you an email you an email asking you for an asking you for an asking you for an example of something example of something example of something ugly that you ugly that you ugly that you thought was good thought was good thought was good design. And you design. And you design. And you talked about this talked about this talked about this ad that used to ad that used to ad that used to be on the subway by be on the subway by be on the subway by Dr. Zizmore, Dr. Zizmore, Dr. Zizmore, right? right? right? Zizmore. Dr. Zizmore. Dr. Zizmore. Dr. Zizmore. Zizmore. Zizmore. Can you describe Can you describe Can you describe it for our listeners it for our listeners it for our listeners in audio format?

in audio format? Yes. Dr. Zizmore Yes. Dr. Zizmore was a dermatologist. I do was a dermatologist. I do was a dermatologist. I do n't know if he's still n't know if he's still n't know if he's still alive, but he's definitely alive, but he's definitely alive, but he's definitely not practicing anymore. And not practicing anymore. And not practicing anymore. And for many for many for many years he actually years he actually years he actually took over the took over the took over the billboards in the New billboards in the New York subway: very loud York subway: very loud York subway: very loud colors, chartreuse, colors, chartreuse, colors, chartreuse, orange, lots of orange, lots of orange, lots of rainbows, "Dr. Z. rainbows, "Dr. Z. rainbows, "Dr. Z. Will Fix Your Will Fix Your Will Fix Your Face," you know, everything Face," you know, everything Face," you know, everything about how you could about how you could about how you could hope to hope to hope to get rid of acne. They get rid of acne. They get rid of acne. They were really were really were really awful. Really, awful. Really, awful. Really, really awful. But over really awful. But over really awful. But over time, they were time, they were time, they were remarkably remarkably remarkably consistent. They consistent. They used the used the same visual same visual same visual language over and over again. language over and over again. language over and over again. Rainbows. Rainbows. Rainbows, terribly Rainbows, terribly formatted formatted formatted text, messed up text, messed up text, messed up scaling, and scaling, and scaling, and bad silhouettes, but bad silhouettes, but bad silhouettes, but they became something like a they became something like a they became something like a Crazy Eddie ad Crazy Eddie ad Crazy Eddie ad from the '70s.

from the '70s. Crazy prices. Crazy Crazy prices. Crazy Eddie. His prices are crazy. Eddie. His prices are crazy. Part of the tapestry of the New York York York subway system. So they became subway system. So they became subway system. So they became very familiar and, very familiar and, very familiar and, eventually, really eventually, really beloved. That's very beloved. That's very important for important for important for branding. Even branding. Even branding. Even if something is ugly, if something is ugly, if something is ugly, but you see it but you see it but you see it often enough, it often enough, it often enough, it becomes recognizable, and becomes recognizable, and becomes recognizable, and you start you start you start to associate it with to associate it with to associate it with something. It can something. It can something. It can evoke both pleasant evoke both pleasant evoke both pleasant and unpleasant and unpleasant and unpleasant feelings. Again feelings. Again feelings. Again back to back to back to feelings. In the case of feelings. In the case of feelings. In the case of Zizmor, because Zizmor, because Zizmor, because he seemed like a he seemed like a he seemed like a nice guy, nice guy, nice guy, had no scandals, did a good had no scandals, did a good job, charged a reasonable job, charged a reasonable fee, and spoke to fee, and spoke to fee, and spoke to people, they loved people, they loved people, they loved that ad. They that ad. They that ad. They loved it. Why do people get loved it. Why do people get loved it. Why do people get so upset so upset so upset when when when logos change? It's not logos change? It's not logos change? It's not that the old that the old that the old logo was good, it's that logo was good, it's that logo was good, it's that we're we're we're being robbed of something being robbed of something being robbed of something we're used to. In this day and we're used to. In this day and we're used to. In this day and age, when everything age, when everything age, when everything seems so seems so seems so shaky, losing that shaky, losing that shaky, losing that familiarity, even if it's a familiarity, even if it's a familiarity, even if it's a juice box, juice box, juice box, makes people makes people makes people feel feel feel insecure.

insecure. insecure. So I want to take So I want to take So I want to take this conversation in a different this conversation in a different this conversation in a different direction. I looked at that direction. I looked at that direction. I looked at that ad and I think it's ad and I think it's ad and I think it's great. And one of the great. And one of the great. And one of the reasons it's reasons it's reasons it's great, despite being great, despite being great, despite being ugly and weird ugly and weird ugly and weird and overwrought, is because it and overwrought, is because it feels like a person, feels like a person, not a committee. Yes. not a committee. Yes. They don't feel like the They don't feel like the product of modern product of modern product of modern branding branding branding agencies with their agencies with their agencies with their meetings and meetings and meetings and bureaucratic bureaucratic bureaucratic approach that approach that approach that you get in very you get in very you get in very sophisticated campaigns sophisticated campaigns . But Let's go back to the . But Let's go back to the . But Let's go back to the idea that the market idea that the market idea that the market takes over a lot of takes over a lot of takes over a lot of spaces and imposes spaces and imposes spaces and imposes its logic on them. There's a its logic on them. There's a its logic on them. There's a column I wanted to column I wanted to column I wanted to write but didn't write but didn't write but didn't dare for dare for dare for fear of backlash: As a fear of backlash: As a fear of backlash: As a newcomer to New York, having newcomer to New York, having newcomer to New York, having moved here three moved here three moved here three years ago, I find years ago, I find years ago, I find the presence of advertising on the the presence of advertising on the the presence of advertising on the subway and buses subway and buses very sad. Although it very sad. Although it exists in other exists in other exists in other places, of course. The MTA is places, of course. The MTA is not the only transportation not the only transportation not the only transportation authority that raises authority that raises authority that raises money through advertising.

money through advertising. But it is a public But it is a public space. In fact, space. In fact, space. In fact, it is one of the it is one of the it is one of the most significant most significant most significant public public public spaces in spaces in spaces in American life American life , in my opinion. The New , in my opinion. The New York subway, for York subway, for York subway, for all its flaws, is all its flaws, is all its flaws, is incredible. It is incredible. It is incredible. It is egalitarian. It is all egalitarian. It is all egalitarian. It is all walks of life walks of life walks of life mixing together mixing together mixing together . It is people . It is people . It is people going to going to going to all sorts of all sorts of all sorts of places. And yet it is all places. And yet it is all places. And yet it is all happening under the happening under the happening under the watchful eye of watchful eye of watchful eye of these these profit-seeking lawyers. profit-seeking lawyers. Mhm. Mhm. And Tinder ads and And Tinder ads and And Tinder ads and plastic plastic plastic surgery services. For a long surgery services. For a long surgery services. For a long time in the subway, where I time in the subway, where I time in the subway, where I went with my went with my went with my children. There was an children. There was an children. There was an ad for the relaunch ad for the relaunch ad for the relaunch "The Exorcist." "The Exorcist." "The Exorcist." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Over the entrance, and it Over the entrance, and it Over the entrance, and it was black and white, with was black and white, with was black and white, with the faces of two the faces of two the faces of two girls who were kind of girls who were kind of girls who were kind of spitting blood spitting blood spitting blood or pus. It was a or pus. It was a or pus. It was a horrible, grotesque horrible, grotesque horrible, grotesque ad. And I started ad. And I started ad. And I started looking into this. looking into this. looking into this. The MTA only gets The MTA only gets The MTA only gets about 1% of its about 1% of its operating revenue operating revenue operating revenue from advertising. And on the from advertising. And on the from advertising. And on the one hand, I know one hand, I know one hand, I know that the administration that the administration that the administration is trying to make the is trying to make the is trying to make the buses buses buses free, and isn't it free, and isn't it free, and isn't it a little elitist a little elitist a little elitist to say that it's to say that it's to say that it's worth spending that worth spending that worth spending that money on ridding the money on ridding the money on ridding the subway of advertising instead of making it subway of advertising instead of making it subway of advertising instead of making it free?

free? free? And on the other hand, when And on the other hand, when And on the other hand, when I was thinking about writing I was thinking about writing I was thinking about writing this, it this, it this, it occurred to me that maybe occurred to me that maybe occurred to me that maybe public spaces public spaces public spaces shouldn't be shouldn't be shouldn't be commercialized commercialized commercialized like this. Maybe like this. Maybe like this. Maybe it should be an oasis, it should be an oasis, it should be an oasis, free from free from free from constant advertising, constant advertising, constant advertising, from having your from having your from having your attention and, you know, your field of attention and, you know, your field of attention and, you know, your field of vision taken over by vision taken over by vision taken over by the market. These ads the market. These ads the market. These ads make the New make the New York City subway much York City subway much York City subway much uglier than it uglier than it uglier than it could be. could be. could be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what I really So what I really So what I really like about the New like about the New York City subway is that York City subway is that York City subway is that sometimes they sometimes they sometimes they use use use advertising spaces to advertising spaces to advertising spaces to put poetry. It's put poetry. It's put poetry. It's really great. Sometimes there's really great. Sometimes there's art there. I think it's art there. I think it's really cool. It's really cool. It's really cool. It's like the old like the old like the old progressive movement, the progressive movement, the progressive movement, the civic enrichment movement. civic enrichment movement. civic enrichment movement. You can imagine a world You can imagine a world where that was the only thing that existed, where that was the only thing that existed, where that was the only thing that existed, yes. yes. yes. that was that was that was visual content that was visual content that was n't for n't for n't for profit. And profit. And profit. And I think it would be really I think it would be really I think it would be really cool if advertising cool if advertising cool if advertising disappeared. It seems like the market disappeared. It seems like the market disappeared. It seems like the market has taken over what's has taken over what's has taken over what's for people, for people, for people, and the market has become the and the market has become the and the market has become the dominant dominant dominant visual language in something that visual language in something that visual language in something that they're they're they're not really paying for not really paying for not really paying for as a major player.

as a major player. as a major player. They're not paying for They're not paying for They're not paying for most of it. most of it. most of it. prisoner. prisoner. prisoner. Yes. And we're used to -- I Yes. And we're used to -- I Yes. And we're used to -- I mean, if mean, if mean, if you go back to the '50s and ' you go back to the '50s and ' you go back to the '50s and ' 60s, people were very 60s, people were very 60s, people were very concerned about concerned about concerned about how advertising was taking over the how advertising was taking over the how advertising was taking over the visual field. visual field. visual field. Yes. Yes. And we've come to And we've come to take that for take that for take that for granted, which is a little bit granted, which is a little bit granted, which is a little bit surprising and frustrating, and it's a surprising and frustrating, and it's a surprising and frustrating, and it's a sign of a sign of a sign of a lowering of our lowering of our lowering of our ambitions for ambitions for ambitions for public public public space or the space or the space or the architectural architectural architectural environment. environment. environment. Well, part of it is, Well, part of it is, Well, part of it is, that this ad is that this ad is that this ad is really ugly. really ugly. really ugly. If it were If it were If it were interesting, interesting, interesting, provocative, thought-provoking, provocative, thought-provoking, or or inspiring, then things inspiring, then things inspiring, then things might be a little might be a little might be a little different. But if you're different. But if you're different. But if you're writing this article, there are writing this article, there are writing this article, there are two things that might two things that might two things that might interest you: São interest you: São Paulo Paulo Paulo got rid of all its got rid of all its got rid of all its billboards for a while. I don't know if billboards for a while. I don't know if billboards for a while. I don't know if they still do, but they they still do, but they they still do, but they did it as an did it as an did it as an experiment, and it experiment, and it experiment, and it really changed the really changed the really changed the visual environment visual environment . And Ed Ruscha, the . And Ed Ruscha, the . And Ed Ruscha, the artist, has a whole artist, has a whole artist, has a whole series of works. He series of works. He series of works. He did a whole series of did a whole series of did a whole series of works with blank works with blank works with blank billboards. And it's billboards. And it's billboards. And it's beautiful. No beautiful. No beautiful. No messages, just a messages, just a messages, just a white blank billboard white blank billboard white blank billboard in an urban in an urban in an urban environment. And it's environment. And it's environment. And it's actually quite actually quite actually quite provocative.

provocative. provocative. That's so interesting about That's so interesting about That's so interesting about São Paulo. And I São Paulo. And I São Paulo. And I mean, you go to other mean, you go to other mean, you go to other countries, to their countries, to their countries, to their subway systems, and there's subway systems, and there's subway systems, and there's not advertising everywhere. So not advertising everywhere. So not advertising everywhere. So to me, that brings us to me, that brings us to me, that brings us to what we're to what we're to what we're talking about: we've started talking about: we've started talking about: we've started to accept the logic of the to accept the logic of the to accept the logic of the market in a lot of market in a lot of market in a lot of places where you wouldn't places where you wouldn't places where you wouldn't expect to see a expect to see a expect to see a market. We've started market. We've started market. We've started to look at things that are to look at things that are to look at things that are n't market-based, n't market-based, n't market-based, like religion, in like religion, in like religion, in market terms. market terms. market terms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think the And you know, I think the And you know, I think the market has certain market has certain market has certain desires. It's not that desires. It's not that desires. It's not that the market hates the market hates the market hates beauty. It would be beauty. It would be beauty. It would be happy to sell happy to sell happy to sell you something beautiful. But you something beautiful. But you something beautiful. But the purpose of the market is to sell a the purpose of the market is to sell a the purpose of the market is to sell a product. product. We now see We now see advertising even above advertising even above advertising even above urinals in urinals in urinals in public restrooms public restrooms . Seriously? Is that where . Seriously? Is that where . Seriously? Is that where you want you want you want to get someone's to get someone's to get someone's attention? I mean, there's attention? I mean, there's attention? I mean, there's practically no practically no practically no space left that's space left that's space left that's free from free from free from corporate branding corporate branding . You have logos on . You have logos on . You have logos on eggs. On the eggs themselves. eggs. On the eggs themselves.

Since we're Since we're getting into getting into getting into politics, I want politics, I want politics, I want to ask you about the fact to ask you about the fact to ask you about the fact that there's that there's been a been a real movement on the right wing in recent years that's kind of real movement on the right wing in recent years that's kind of trying to trying to revive the revive the revive the beauty debate. beauty debate. Mhm. Mhm. And you've seen it, I And you've seen it, I And you've seen it, I mean, Donald mean, Donald mean, Donald Trump uses Trump uses Trump uses the word "beautiful" the word "beautiful" more than any more than any other president, other president, other president, probably in probably in probably in history. And of course, history. And of course, history. And of course, his idea of his idea of his idea of beauty—it's not my beauty—it's not my beauty—it's not my idea of ​​beauty, idea of ​​beauty, idea of ​​beauty, but he cares but he cares . . . Yeah, and now there's even Yeah, and now there's even Yeah, and now there's even The term for this. Let's not The term for this. Let's not The term for this. Let's not forget. Mar-a-Lago forget. Mar-a-Lago is actually a term is actually a term is actually a term in our culture in our culture in our culture right now. right now. right now. And you know, they're And you know, they're And you know, they're building different things and building different things and building different things and going back to going back to going back to neoclassical neoclassical neoclassical architecture in different architecture in different architecture in different ways. And it's ways. And it's ways. And it's not just not just not just him, it's all the people him, it's all the people him, it's all the people around him. I around him. I around him. I thought this thought this thought this piece from Tucker piece from Tucker piece from Tucker Carlson that I'm Carlson that I'm Carlson that I'm going to show you was going to show you was really interesting. really interesting. really interesting. It's another taboo It's another taboo It's another taboo subject in American subject in American subject in American politics. You're not politics. You're not politics. You're not allowed allowed allowed to point out that our to point out that our to point out that our buildings are grotesque and buildings are grotesque and buildings are grotesque and dehumanizing. Why are dehumanizing. Why are dehumanizing. Why are they bad? Because they bad? Because they bad? Because they're ugly, and they're ugly, and they're ugly, and ugliness ugliness ugliness dehumanizes us. dehumanizes us.

dehumanizes us. Let me clarify Let me clarify Let me clarify what I mean by what I mean by " " dehumanization." dehumanization." Dehumanization is the Dehumanization is the act of convincing act of convincing act of convincing people that they're people that they're people that they're worthless, that worthless, that worthless, that they're less important than the they're less important than the they're less important than the greater whole, that they're greater whole, that they're greater whole, that they're not individual souls, that they're not individual souls, that they're not individual souls, that they're not unique, that they're not not unique, that they're not not unique, that they're not created by God, but created by God, but created by God, but just plasticine in just plasticine in just plasticine in the hands of some greater the hands of some greater the hands of some greater power. power. The thing that he starts off by The thing that he starts off by saying, that's about supposedly you saying, that's about supposedly you saying, that's about supposedly you can't talk about it—it's can't talk about it—it's strange, because you strange, because you strange, because you can talk about it. can talk about it. can talk about it. But you do see the But you do see the But you do see the right-wing's desire right-wing's desire right-wing's desire to say that we've to say that we've to say that we've allowed beauty allowed beauty allowed beauty to become secondary as a to become secondary as a to become secondary as a public purpose. Um, public purpose. Um, public purpose. Um, I wonder what you I wonder what you I wonder what you think about that. think about that. think about that. Well, I think this is the Well, I think this is the Well, I think this is the first time I've first time I've first time I've agreed with Tucker agreed with Tucker agreed with Tucker Carlson. The first time. Carlson. The first time. Carlson. The first time. But I don't think that's But I don't think that's But I don't think that's true. I don't true. I don't true. I don't think that's true think that's true think that's true about the right at all. If that about the right at all. If that about the right at all. If that were the case, there would be were the case, there would be were the case, there would be a lot more of an uproar a lot more of an uproar a lot more of an uproar about what about what about what the president is doing to the the president is doing to the the president is doing to the White House, to the White House, to the White House, to the East Wing, to the East Wing, to the East Wing, to the arches that he's arches that he's arches that he's building, to the building, to the building, to the reflecting pool reflecting pool . I mean, there's . I mean, there's . I mean, there's so much damage that's been done so much damage that's been done so much damage that's been done that makes that makes that makes Washington Washington Washington uglier. I don't uglier. I don't uglier. I don't see the right see the right see the right protesting against protesting against protesting against that.

that. that. Well, don't they Well, don't they Well, don't they think they're making think they're making think they're making it more beautiful? Does it more beautiful? Does it more beautiful? Does n't Donald Trump n't Donald Trump n't Donald Trump think his think his think his reflecting pool is reflecting pool is reflecting pool is sparkling? sparkling? sparkling? I don't know anyone who I don't know anyone who I don't know anyone who would say, "You know, the would say, "You know, the would say, "You know, the Oval Office Oval Office Oval Office looks really looks really looks really good now." good now." good now." Trump is the one who Trump is the one who Trump is the one who thinks that, Trump. But thinks that, Trump. But thinks that, Trump. But I I'm saying this in all I I'm saying this in all I I'm saying this in all seriousness. seriousness. seriousness. Me too. Me too. Me too. There's no one on the right who's There's no one on the right who's There's no one on the right who's saying, "You know what? saying, "You know what? saying, "You know what? Let's invest in gold Let's invest in gold Let's invest in gold filigree." No filigree." No filigree." No one's talking about it. It's one's talking about it. It's one's talking about it. It's not a trend that's not a trend that's not a trend that's catching on, catching on, catching on, thankfully. thankfully. thankfully. Well, let me Well, let me Well, let me make an argument not for make an argument not for make an argument not for what what what they're doing, but for they're doing, but for they're doing, but for the challenge that they're the challenge that they're the challenge that they're posing that posing that posing that liberals and leftists liberals and leftists liberals and leftists should try should try should try to take seriously. to take seriously. The rediscovery The rediscovery by the right of classical by the right of classical by the right of classical architecture, of architecture, of architecture, of Roman columns. Roman columns. Yes. The right, because the The right, because the modern right movement in modern right movement in modern right movement in America is much more America is much more America is much more reactionary. It's reactionary. It's reactionary. It's able to identify a able to identify a able to identify a very clear moment of very clear moment of very clear moment of beauty, which is—old beauty, which is—old beauty, which is—old things. And, you know, if things. And, you know, if things. And, you know, if you read white you read white you read white nationalists, right? nationalists, right? nationalists, right? They're very outspoken about They're very outspoken about They're very outspoken about it. You know, they it. You know, they it. You know, they understand it as a understand it as a understand it as a European heritage European heritage . And I think the left—and . And I think the left—and . And I think the left—and the term "left" is the term "left" is the term "left" is tricky, because tricky, because tricky, because obviously there are obviously there are obviously there are moderates, moderates, moderates, liberals and leftists. They liberals and leftists. They have more have more difficulty difficulty difficulty figuring out what figuring out what figuring out what to counter This.

to counter This. to counter This. Not because it doesn't Not because it doesn't Not because it doesn't think beauty is think beauty is think beauty is important, but because it does important, but because it does important, but because it does n't want to dictate what n't want to dictate what beauty is. Who am I to beauty is. Who am I to judge? judge? judge? And it's not a binary thing. And it's not a binary thing. And it's not a binary thing. And it's not a binary thing. And it's not a binary thing. And it's not a binary thing. So we have an interesting So we have an interesting So we have an interesting situation where I situation where I situation where I really think the really think the really think the right is doing something right is doing something right is doing something interesting in trying to interesting in trying to interesting in trying to bring ideas of beauty back bring ideas of beauty back bring ideas of beauty back into something that's more into something that's more into something that's more central to central to central to political political political debate. And I'm not debate. And I'm not debate. And I'm not sure I've seen sure I've seen sure I've seen any any any response or even a response or even a response or even a willingness to argue willingness to argue willingness to argue with them about it among with them about it among with them about it among people on the left. people on the left. Part of it is because Part of it is because if you think the if you think the if you think the past is full of past is full of past is full of problems and you want to problems and you want to problems and you want to move towards a move towards a move towards a future that future that future that hasn't been built yet, what hasn't been built yet, what hasn't been built yet, what visual grammar, visual grammar, visual grammar, what visual language what visual language what visual language can be acceptable can be acceptable can be acceptable to everyone? to everyone? Well, no one Well, no one will ever agree. There is and will ever agree. There is and will ever agree. There is and never will be never will be never will be one way to one way to one way to judge beauty. But I judge beauty. But I judge beauty. But I want to draw want to draw want to draw a distinction between a distinction between a distinction between taste and style and taste and style and taste and style and power. So I don't think power. So I don't think anyone on the right anyone on the right anyone on the right is looking back at is looking back at is looking back at Roman or Greek Roman or Greek Roman or Greek architecture or architecture or architecture or architecture Versailles architecture Versailles architecture Versailles and thinks, "This was and thinks, "This was and thinks, "This was really great really great really great architecture." I think architecture." I think they're really they're really they're really saying, this is the kind of saying, this is the kind of saying, this is the kind of power that's power that's power that's represented here. This

represented here. This represented here. This architecture architecture architecture represents a certain kind of represents a certain kind of represents a certain kind of power, and this is the kind of power, and this is the kind of power, and this is the kind of power that we want to power that we want to power that we want to govern. govern. govern. I don't know, I don't think I don't know, I don't think I don't know, I don't think that's... I don't agree with that that's... I don't agree with that that's... I don't agree with that . I think they do . I think they do . I think they do find it find it find it beautiful. At least, beautiful. At least, beautiful. At least, I think it's fair to I think it's fair to I think it's fair to assume that they do find assume that they do find assume that they do find it it it beautiful. beautiful. beautiful. But I think if But I think if But I think if they find it... they find it... Okay, I agree with that. I Okay, I agree with that. I Okay, I agree with that. I think they find think they find think they find it beautiful because it beautiful because it beautiful because it represents a certain it represents a certain it represents a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of power. And those things kind of power. And those things kind of power. And those things can't always be can't always be can't always be separated. It's like Mar-a- separated. It's like Mar-a- Lago, which seems Lago, which seems Lago, which seems beautiful for a beautiful for a beautiful for a reason. Those people reason. Those people reason. Those people find it beautiful. find it beautiful. find it beautiful. You and I may not, You and I may not, You and I may not, but they find it but they find it but they find it beautiful. I'm not beautiful. I'm not beautiful. I'm not questioning someone's questioning someone's questioning someone's own sense of what's own sense of what's beautiful to them. But I beautiful to them. But I think more important think more important think more important than what they than what they than what they find beautiful is the find beautiful is the find beautiful is the question of "why." Why do question of "why." Why do question of "why." Why do they find it they find it they find it beautiful? What is it to beautiful? What is it to beautiful? What is it to them? embodies? them? embodies? So I agree that the So I agree that the set of reasons why we set of reasons why we set of reasons why we find this or that find this or that find this or that thing beautiful is very thing beautiful is very thing beautiful is very complex. complex. Going back to what Going back to what you were saying, even you were saying, even you were saying, even at the beginning, at the beginning, at the beginning, about proportionality and about proportionality and about proportionality and mathematics—I mathematics—I mathematics—I mean, you mean, you mean, you get into get into get into things like the ideal things like the ideal things like the ideal figure, or, you know, these figure, or, you know, these figure, or, you know, these "luxury-maxers" and the "luxury-maxers" and the "luxury-maxers" and the men's movement now men's movement now men's movement now sit around and measure the sit around and measure the sit around and measure the proportional distance proportional distance proportional distance from something there to from something there to from something there to something else. Um, and something else. Um, and something else. Um, and why people why people why people arrive at what arrive at what arrive at what they find they find they find beautiful beautiful beautiful is obviously a matter of is obviously a matter of is obviously a matter of debate and, as you debate and, as you debate and, as you also said, also said, also said, changes over time.

changes over time. But I see the right , or at least this , or at least this , or at least this part of the right, as one that, part of the right, as one that, part of the right, as one that, even if even if even if the government is part of the government is part of the government is part of it, believes that they it, believes that they it, believes that they now have a certain now have a certain now have a certain politics of beauty that I do politics of beauty that I do politics of beauty that I do n't think n't think n't think George W. Bush had George W. Bush had . That . That . That I don't think Mitt I don't think Mitt I don't think Mitt Romney had. That's Romney had. That's Romney had. That's kind of a newbie in kind of a newbie in kind of a newbie in politics, isn't it? politics, isn't it? politics, isn't it? Immediate executive Immediate executive Immediate executive orders about, you know, orders about, you know, orders about, you know, neoclassical or neoclassical or neoclassical or classical classical classical architecture. And I architecture. And I architecture. And I guess one of my guess one of my guess one of my questions, because I questions, because I questions, because I really think that really think that really think that people, particularly on the left -- that's where people, particularly on the left -- that's where a lot of the articles about a lot of the articles about everything getting ugly that everything getting ugly that we're talking about come from. I we're talking about come from. I we're talking about come from. I really think that really think that really think that people have a sense people have a sense people have a sense that the world is becoming that the world is becoming that the world is becoming less beautiful for them. And I less beautiful for them. And I less beautiful for them. And I think they want that to be think they want that to be represented. I think there's a desire desire desire for beauty to for beauty to for beauty to become a become a become a socially significant socially significant socially significant value again. But I think the value again. But I think the value again. But I think the right always has an right always has an right always has an easier time with that because easier time with that because easier time with that because they can just they can just they can just look back. look back. look back. Right. It's " Right. It's " Make America Make America Make America Great Again." Well, Great Again." Well, Great Again." Well, if you make if you make if you make America America America great again, you great again, you great again, you go back to go back to go back to things that were once things that were once things that were once considered a certain considered a certain considered a certain way. It could be way. It could be way. It could be behavior, social behavior, social behavior, social structure, structure, structure, architecture, architecture, architecture, art, music, art, music, art, music, politics, etc. So I politics, etc. So I politics, etc. So I think that's all think that's all think that's all part of it. I part of it. I part of it. I would be shocked if " would be shocked if " Make America Make America Make America Great Again" or a Great Again" or a Great Again" or a sitting president sitting president sitting president said, "Let's said, "Let's said, "Let's create a new style create a new style create a new style of architecture, to of architecture, to of architecture, to represent our represent our represent our future." That's not future." That's not future." That's not going to happen.

going to happen. going to happen. So alongside this So alongside this So alongside this new right, which I new right, which I new right, which I think is think is think is looking back in looking back in looking back in its design its design aesthetic, there's also the aesthetic, there's also the aesthetic, there's also the tech right. We've tech right. We've tech right. We've talked a lot about talked a lot about talked a lot about the Cybertruck in this conversation. the Cybertruck in this conversation. But crypto and NFTs have had a But crypto and NFTs have had a very clear very clear very clear visual language. You visual language. You visual language. You have a certain amount of AI, have a certain amount of AI, have a certain amount of AI, from trash to from trash to from trash to art. But do art. But do art. But do you have a certain new language you have a certain new language you have a certain new language of what the of what the of what the digital digital digital design of the future should look like? design of the future should look like? It's definitely a theory of the It's definitely a theory of the future. I'm future. I'm future. I'm curious what you think curious what you think curious what you think of that as a of that as a of that as a competitor. And what do competitor. And what do competitor. And what do you think that you think that you think that communicates? communicates? I think that's one of the I think that's one of the design factions that's really design factions that's really design factions that's really prominent right now. Because I prominent right now. Because I prominent right now. Because I could also point could also point could also point to Apple Park and the beauty of the to Apple Park and the beauty of the to Apple Park and the beauty of the buildings there, buildings there, buildings there, which are really which are really which are really extraordinary as a extraordinary as a extraordinary as a counterpoint to all of counterpoint to all of counterpoint to all of that. It's interesting that that. It's interesting that that. It's interesting that a lot of the cyber chic is a lot of the cyber chic is a lot of the cyber chic is very linear, with very linear, with very linear, with sharp edges, sharp edges, sharp edges, whereas in Apple Park, all the edges are whereas in Apple Park, all the edges are whereas in Apple Park, all the edges are rounded. You rounded. You rounded. You see it in Bilbao, see it in Bilbao, see it in Bilbao, you see it in the way you see it in the way the museum was redesigned Whitney. So I the museum was redesigned Whitney. So I think that's think that's think that's there too. But like there too. But like there too. But like everything else, we're everything else, we're everything else, we're in a in a in a tension between which tension between which tension between which visual language visual language visual language will prevail. There's always will prevail. There's always will prevail. There's always more than one.

more than one. more than one. We haven't We haven't We haven't talked about it a lot, but talked about it a lot, but talked about it a lot, but a lot of what we're a lot of what we're a lot of what we're talking about has, talking about has, talking about has, I think, sometimes I think, sometimes I think, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly, implicitly and sometimes explicitly, masculine or masculine or feminine coding. feminine coding. feminine coding. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I mean, the Cybertruck I mean, the Cybertruck is a very masculine is a very masculine is a very masculine design. Say whatever you want about it design. Say whatever you want about it design. Say whatever you want about it . And . And . And you just talked about you just talked about you just talked about sensuality and curves. sensuality and curves. How much of this How much of this struggle that we're struggle that we're struggle that we're having is related to the having is related to the having is related to the larger political larger political larger political dynamic of the gender dynamic of the gender dynamic of the gender war that we're in war that we're in war that we're in ? ? ? I'll go back to what I I'll go back to what I I'll go back to what I said earlier. I don't said earlier. I don't said earlier. I don't think it's a gender think it's a gender think it's a gender war, it's more of a war, it's more of a war, it's more of a power struggle. power struggle. power struggle. Mhm. Mhm. How do we think power should be How do we think power should be conveyed and conveyed and conveyed and visualized visualized visualized ? And I think that's what ? And I think that's what ? And I think that's what we're we're we're seeing right now. seeing right now. seeing right now. So do you think about So do you think about So do you think about that in the modern world? keys, that in the modern world? keys, that in the modern world? keys, as a kind of as a kind of as a kind of answer to what the answer to what the answer to what the world of Mar-a-Lago world of Mar-a-Lago world of Mar-a-Lago has invented as its own has invented as its own has invented as its own beauty? Do you think there beauty? Do you think there beauty? Do you think there is an answer to that? You is an answer to that? You is an answer to that? You know, you could say know, you could say know, you could say yes, the world has become yes, the world has become yes, the world has become uglier. I think what uglier. I think what uglier. I think what you're saying is—and that's what you're saying is—and that's what you're saying is—and that's what you're really you're really you're really saying—that what they're saying—that what they're saying—that what they're doing is ugly doing is ugly doing is ugly because it's blatant, it's because it's blatant, it's because it's blatant, it's vulgar, it's vulgar, it's vulgar, it's disproportionate, because it's disproportionate, because it's disproportionate, because it's about power and about power and about power and intimidation.

intimidation. intimidation. And I'll be frank: it And I'll be frank: it And I'll be frank: it embodies a politics embodies a politics embodies a politics that I don't believe in. that I don't believe in. that I don't believe in. Yes. So do you believe there's an Yes. So do you believe there's an answer that you believe in that allows people who allows people who share your views share your views share your views to talk about beauty in a way that's more to talk about beauty in a way that's more understandable and understandable and inspiring to others? inspiring to others? Ezra, I would like to Ezra, I would like to say yes. I would say yes. I would say yes. I would like to say like to say yes. In my yes. In my yes. In my work, I'm work, I'm work, I'm an analyst. I look back an analyst. I look back an analyst. I look back in time and I look in time and I look in time and I look back and try to back and try to back and try to make sense of what's make sense of what's make sense of what's happening now. I'm happening now. I'm happening now. I'm not a futurist. I'm not a futurist. I'm not a futurist. I'm not even sure I would not even sure I would not even sure I would call myself a call myself a call myself a optimistic. But I optimistic. But I optimistic. But I hope so. I hope so. I hope so. I want to say that I want to say that I want to say that I hope so. hope so. hope so. Okay, I think that's the Okay, I think that's the end of it. So, our end of it. So, our traditional last traditional last traditional last question. What three question. What three question. What three books would you recommend to books would you recommend to books would you recommend to our audience? our audience? our audience? I've been thinking about I've been thinking about I've been thinking about this a lot. I'll name three of my this a lot. I'll name three of my this a lot. I'll name three of my favorites. books in my favorites. books in my favorites. books in my lifetime, and then I'll add lifetime, and then I'll add lifetime, and then I'll add another one that I discovered another one that I discovered another one that I discovered in the last in the last in the last decade and that decade and that decade and that changed my life. changed my life. So, I'll do it, So, I'll do it, if you don't mind.

if you don't mind. if you don't mind. Please. Please. Please. OK. So, number OK. So, number OK. So, number one is a poetry one is a poetry one is a poetry collection called "The collection called "The Voice That Is Great in Voice That Is Great in Voice That Is Great in Us." It's the work of Us." It's the work of Us." It's the work of Hayden Carruth, and it's an Hayden Carruth, and it's an Hayden Carruth, and it's an amazing collection of amazing collection of amazing collection of 20th century poetry. 20th century poetry. It was there that I first It was there that I first discovered my discovered my discovered my favorite poem of all favorite poem of all favorite poem of all time—“Maximus to time—“Maximus to time—“Maximus to Himself” by Charles Himself” by Charles Himself” by Charles Olson. By the way, I Olson. By the way, I Olson. By the way, I named my dog named my dog named my dog Maximus. This is number Maximus. This is number Maximus. This is number one. Number two is what one. Number two is what I consider one of the I consider one of the I consider one of the greatest greatest greatest love stories of all love stories of all love stories of all time. This is time. This is time. This is García Márquez's book " García Márquez's book " Love in the Time of Love in the Time of Love in the Time of Cholera," which has the Cholera," which has the Cholera," which has the best last best last best last line in the line in the line in the history of books. So you'll history of books. So you'll history of books. So you'll have to read have to read have to read it all the way to the end to get it all the way to the end to get it all the way to the end to get to this point. And to this point. And to this point. And then, my third book is the one then, my third book is the one I I I hope to make into a hope to make into a hope to make into a film someday. I film someday. I film someday. I fell in love with this book fell in love with this book fell in love with this book back in college. This is back in college. This is Ulysses by James Ulysses by James Ulysses by James Joyce. I even Joyce. I even Joyce. I even went to Ireland for went to Ireland for went to Ireland for Bloomsday—a day in Bloomsday—a day in Bloomsday—a day in the life of Leopold the life of Leopold the life of Leopold Bloom that Joyce wrote about Bloom that Joyce wrote about Bloom that Joyce wrote about in Ulysses—and in Ulysses—and took a walking took a walking took a walking tour of Ireland tour of Ireland tour of Ireland and visited and visited and visited Sandymount Strand. These are Sandymount Strand. These are Sandymount Strand. These are my three favorite my three favorite my three favorite books. Books books. Books books. Books have radically changed have radically changed have radically changed my life. But more my life. But more my life. But more recently, in 2017, I recently, in 2017, I recently, in 2017, I started reading the book started reading the book Hunger by Roxanne Gay. And Hunger by Roxanne Gay. And Hunger by Roxanne Gay. And when I read this when I read this when I read this book, I fell in love with the book, I fell in love with the book, I fell in love with the author. Without seeing her, author. Without seeing her, author. Without seeing her, just reading her words

just reading her words . So much so that I . So much so that I . So much so that I reached out to her. I reached out to her. I reached out to her. I wanted to invite her to wanted to invite her to wanted to invite her to my podcast. She my podcast. She my podcast. She refused. I refused. I refused. I tried to tried to tried to stay in touch. stay in touch. stay in touch. She was very She was very She was very elusive about elusive about elusive about it. And then, through a it. And then, through a it. And then, through a mutual acquaintance, mutual acquaintance, mutual acquaintance, she found out that I was she found out that I was she found out that I was n't actually n't actually n't actually crazy. Then in crazy. Then in crazy. Then in 2018, I asked her out 2018, I asked her out 2018, I asked her out . And in . And in . And in 2020 we got married. 2020 we got married. So, my book is " Hunger" by Roxanne Gay. Hunger" by Roxanne Gay. Hunger" by Roxanne Gay. This is a great fourth This is a great fourth This is a great fourth recommendation. Debbie recommendation. Debbie recommendation. Debbie Millman, thank you very much. Millman, thank you very much. Millman, thank you very much. Thank you, Ezra.