Trumpism Is Backfiring | The Ezra Klein Show

No country right now No country right now demonstrates the demonstrates the demonstrates the transformation in how transformation in how transformation in how the world perceives the world perceives the world perceives America, how we America, how we America, how we have gone from an have gone from an have gone from an ally and partner ally and partner ally and partner to an aggressor and predator to an aggressor and predator , better than Canada. , better than Canada. At the end of August, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney withdrew from withdrew from withdrew from trade trade trade talks with the talks with the Trump administration. Trump administration. Canada is becoming Canada is becoming Canada is becoming stronger and less stronger and less stronger and less dependent on America. dependent on America. dependent on America. We already give ourselves We already give ourselves We already give ourselves more than they more than they more than they can take away. And we are can take away. And we are can take away. And we are just getting started. just getting started. just getting started. He did this knowing He did this knowing He did this knowing that retaliation could that retaliation could that retaliation could be devastating to the be devastating to the be devastating to the Canadian economy Canadian economy . But it is also . But it is also . But it is also destructive and indicative destructive and indicative destructive and indicative of the messiness of of the messiness of Donald Trump's foreign policy. What Donald Trump's foreign policy. What Trump is doing is not Trump is doing is not Trump is doing is not giving America what giving America what giving America what Trump wanted. I mean, Trump wanted. I mean, Trump wanted. I mean, Trump Trump Trump wanted Canada to wanted Canada to wanted Canada to become the 51st state. become the 51st state. become the 51st state. They will eventually become the They will eventually become the They will eventually become the 51st state because that's the 51st state because that's the 51st state because that's the only way it only way it only way it works. You know, we works. You know, we works. You know, we don't need them, but don't need them, but don't need them, but they need us. they need us. they need us. Instead, they Instead, they Instead, they can become an can become an can become an associate member of the associate member of the associate member of the European Union. European Union. European Union. Trump wanted to Trump wanted to Trump wanted to weaken China on the weaken China on the weaken China on the world stage. world stage. world stage. You know, we're You know, we're You know, we're beating China. You beating China. You beating China. You know that. China know that. China know that. China knows this.

knows this. knows this. Now Carney and Canada are Now Carney and Canada are Now Carney and Canada are negotiating negotiating negotiating deals and deals and deals and agreements with all agreements with all agreements with all other countries, other countries, other countries, including China, including China, including China, in an attempt to in an attempt to in an attempt to diversify diversify diversify away from America. And away from America. And away from America. And now America and now America and now America and Canada are racing towards the Canada are racing towards the Canada are racing towards the January deadline, January deadline, January deadline, when massive new tariffs will take when massive new tariffs will take when massive new tariffs will take effect effect effect . So, . So, . So, who does this help? And who does this help? And who does this help? And what does this mean not just what does this mean not just what does this mean not just for Canada, but for for Canada, but for for Canada, but for America, for our America, for our America, for our relations with our neighbors, relations with our neighbors, relations with our neighbors, and for our relations and for our relations and for our relations with the rest of the world? From with the rest of the world? From with the rest of the world? From 2013 until the beginning of 2013 until the beginning of 2013 until the beginning of this year, Chrystia this year, Chrystia this year, Chrystia Freeland was a member of the Freeland was a member of the Freeland was a member of the Canadian Canadian Canadian Parliament. She Parliament. She Parliament. She has held a number of has held a number of has held a number of senior positions in the senior positions in the senior positions in the Canadian government, including Canadian government, including Canadian government, including Deputy Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Finance, and Minister of Finance, and Minister of Finance, and Minister of Foreign Minister of Foreign Minister of Foreign Affairs, where she was Affairs, where she was Canada's chief negotiator in Canada's chief negotiator in trade trade trade talks with the first talks with the first Trump administration. And now she is the Trump administration. And now she is the author of a new book, " author of a new book, " Unreliable Guy: An Unreliable Guy: An Unreliable Guy: An Insider's Look at Insider's Look at Insider's Look at Dealing with a Dealing with a Dealing with a Chaotic Chaotic Chaotic Superpower, Superpower, Superpower, Plutocrats, and Plutocrats, and Plutocrats, and Other Difficult Other Difficult Other Difficult People." She is People." She is People." She is joining me joining me joining me now. Chrystia Freeland now. Chrystia Freeland , welcome to the , welcome to the , welcome to the show. It's show. It's show. It's very nice to be with very nice to be with very nice to be with you, Ezra.

you, Ezra. you, Ezra. So, a recent So, a recent So, a recent Canadian poll Canadian poll Canadian poll found that 41% of found that 41% of Canadians consider the Canadians consider the Canadians consider the United States to be a United States to be a United States to be a hostile country. An hostile country. An hostile country. An enemy country. A enemy country. A enemy country. A Pew survey Pew survey Pew survey found that more found that more found that more Canadians have a Canadians have a Canadians have a favorable impression favorable impression favorable impression of China than the United States of China than the United States . So, I guess my . So, I guess my . So, I guess my question is: how did we question is: how did we question is: how did we get to this point? get to this point? This is a great topic to This is a great topic to start with. And no, really start with. And no, really . And no, it really is, . And no, it really is, . And no, it really is, because I don't think because I don't think because I don't think Americans fully Americans fully Americans fully realize what realize what realize what happened. And I am familiar with happened. And I am familiar with happened. And I am familiar with both of these both of these both of these surveys. It's surveys. It's really interesting really interesting to compare where we are to compare where we are to compare where we are today and where we were today and where we were today and where we were in 2023. In 2023, in 2023. In 2023, in 2023. In 2023, Canadians, of course, Canadians, of course, Canadians, of course, considered the United considered the United considered the United States an ally and States an ally and States an ally and China an adversary China an adversary . And this position . And this position . And this position has actually changed has actually changed has actually changed to the opposite. And here's what to the opposite. And here's what to the opposite. And here's what happened: happened: happened: Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump, threats to Canadian threats to Canadian threats to Canadian sovereignty, and sovereignty, and sovereignty, and tariffs. Here's what tariffs. Here's what tariffs. Here's what happened.

happened. happened. Before this Before this Before this administration, there was administration, there was administration, there was another another another Trump administration, as I have been Trump administration, as I have been Trump administration, as I have been reliably reliably reliably informed. I have informed. I have informed. I have vague memories of this vague memories of this . What makes it . What makes it . What makes it different? different? I don't really think I don't really think President Trump is any President Trump is any President Trump is any different. And I think it's different. And I think it's different. And I think it's important for people important for people important for people to remember: he to remember: he to remember: he tried to do all of this tried to do all of this tried to do all of this during his first during his first during his first term. And he term. And he term. And he did a lot of things, did did a lot of things, did did a lot of things, did n't he? He n't he? He n't he? He imposed tariffs imposed tariffs imposed tariffs against Canada and against Canada and against Canada and allies, the same allies, the same allies, the same 232 tariffs on steel and 232 tariffs on steel and 232 tariffs on steel and aluminum. He did not aluminum. He did not aluminum. He did not threaten our threaten our threaten our sovereignty, but he sovereignty, but he sovereignty, but he said many said many said many unpleasant things about unpleasant things about unpleasant things about us and about many us and about many us and about many Europeans. Europeans. Europeans. Remember when he Remember when he Remember when he threw candy at threw candy at threw candy at Angela Merkel at the Angela Merkel at the Angela Merkel at the G7 meeting? Yes, I G7 meeting? Yes, I G7 meeting? Yes, I was there. was there. was there. Candy for Angela Candy for Angela Candy for Angela Merkel? Merkel? Merkel? Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't remember this at all I don't remember this at all I don't remember this at all . . . Yes, yes, no, no, he Yes, yes, no, no, he Yes, yes, no, no, he did it. I did it. This did it. I did it. This did it. I did it. This was at the G7 meeting was at the G7 meeting was at the G7 meeting hosted by Canada. The hosted by Canada. The G7 leaders tried to G7 leaders tried to convince the United convince the United convince the United States to sign what States to sign what States to sign what was a completely was a completely was a completely banal, banal, banal, conventional conventional conventional declaration that declaration that declaration that we together we together we together support a support a rules-based international order. They rules-based international order. They couldn't get couldn't get couldn't get Trump to agree.

Trump to agree. Trump to agree. He really didn't He really didn't He really didn't like the fact that he like the fact that he like the fact that he was the only one who disagreed was the only one who disagreed was the only one who disagreed with the group. with the group. Angela Merkel, who in Angela Merkel, who in my opinion was my opinion was my opinion was simply simply simply unbeatable in the way unbeatable in the way unbeatable in the way she she she dealt with Trump, dealt with Trump, dealt with Trump, sat in the middle. And sat in the middle. And sat in the middle. And as he walked away, he as he walked away, he as he walked away, he took took took some candy out of his pocket and some candy out of his pocket and some candy out of his pocket and literally threw it at literally threw it at literally threw it at Angela Merkel. Angela Merkel. Angela Merkel. When you say When you say When you say she was she was she was unparalleled in the way unparalleled in the way unparalleled in the way she she she dealt with Trump, dealt with Trump, dealt with Trump, how exactly did she how exactly did she how exactly did she do it? do it? do it? I think she did the I think she did the I think she did the right thing. right thing. right thing. Angela Merkel, Angela Merkel, Angela Merkel, former Chancellor of former Chancellor of former Chancellor of Germany, for those Germany, for those Germany, for those who are less familiar with who are less familiar with who are less familiar with German politics. German politics. Her view, and I think Her view, and I think it was formed over it was formed over it was formed over many years of many years of many years of communication with communication with communication with Vladimir Putin, Vladimir Putin, Vladimir Putin, who could be who could be who could be insulting and insulting and insulting and humiliating, humiliating, humiliating, trying to throw trying to throw trying to throw her off track. He knew her off track. He knew her off track. He knew she was afraid of dogs she was afraid of dogs , so he sometimes brought , so he sometimes brought , so he sometimes brought the dog to meetings. the dog to meetings. the dog to meetings. So she was, so to So she was, so to So she was, so to speak, used to speak, used to speak, used to him often him often him often using using using psychological warfare methods. psychological warfare methods. psychological warfare methods. Yes. Yes, she was Yes. Yes, she was Yes. Yes, she was used to dealing with used to dealing with used to dealing with bullies. And her bullies. And her bullies. And her approach to President approach to President approach to President Trump, shaped by Trump, shaped by Trump, shaped by that experience, was what the that experience, was what the that experience, was what the French French French call "correct call "correct ." Just be ." Just be ." Just be cool-headed, cool-headed, cool-headed, calm, don't calm, don't calm, don't try try try to flatter, don't to flatter, don't to flatter, don't try to appease try to appease , don't engage in a fight with him , don't engage in a fight with him , don't engage in a fight with him , but just be , but just be , but just be very clear and very clear and very clear and rational in rational in rational in your approach. And

your approach. And your approach. And you know, I think there are you know, I think there are you know, I think there are leaders who thought: I leaders who thought: I leaders who thought: I can win this can win this can win this guy over to my side. guy over to my side. You know, I can give You know, I can give him the most brilliant him the most brilliant him the most brilliant prize. I can give him a prize. I can give him a prize. I can give him a gold, you know, gold, you know, diamond-encrusted watch. I can diamond-encrusted watch. I can give him...you know, I give him...you know, I give him...you know, I can flatter him in the most can flatter him in the most can flatter him in the most impudent way. Did impudent way. Did impudent way. Did they have such a strategy? they have such a strategy? they have such a strategy? I think most I think most I think most people have tried it. people have tried it. people have tried it. Actually. And I think Actually. And I think Actually. And I think this strategy is this strategy is this strategy is partly based, in a strange way, partly based, in a strange way, partly based, in a strange way, on on on underestimating Trump. Is underestimating Trump. Is underestimating Trump. Is n't that right? I think there are n't that right? I think there are n't that right? I think there are many leaders who many leaders who many leaders who think Trump is think Trump is think Trump is stupider than them. So stupider than them. So stupider than them. So they think: well, I'll just they think: well, I'll just appease him a little. I will appease him a little. I will flatter him boldly. flatter him boldly. flatter him boldly. And maybe I'll And maybe I'll And maybe I'll agree to some of the agree to some of the agree to some of the things he wants, things he wants, things he wants, but it'll only be on but it'll only be on but it'll only be on paper. It won't be paper. It won't be real. And everything real. And everything real. And everything will be fine. I don't think this is the will be fine. I don't think this is the right right right approach. I think approach. I think approach. I think our approach during the our approach during the our approach during the first first first NAFTA negotiations was NAFTA negotiations was NAFTA negotiations was calm and calm and calm and measured, and you know, measured, and you know, measured, and you know, the phrase that I probably the phrase that I probably the phrase that I probably repeated a million repeated a million repeated a million times, well maybe not a times, well maybe not a times, well maybe not a million, but many, million, but many, many times many times many times publicly, was: we are not publicly, was: we are not publicly, was: we are not escalating and escalating and escalating and we are not backing down. And I we are not backing down. And I we are not backing down. And I think that such think that such think that such balance—I balance—I balance—I will not be presumptuous in front of you will not be presumptuous in front of you will not be presumptuous in front of you , I , I , I will not allow myself to be will not allow myself to be will not allow myself to be intimidated, but intimidated, but intimidated, but at the same time I will not at the same time I will not at the same time I will not raise the raise the raise the emotional tone in emotional tone in emotional tone in communicating with you.

communicating with you. communicating with you. I think this is how you should I think this is how you should I think this is how you should treat the treat the treat the president. president. president. What does a world look like What does a world look like What does a world look like where this escalates into a where this escalates into a where this escalates into a full-scale full-scale full-scale trade war trade war trade war or continues as a or continues as a or continues as a full-scale full-scale full-scale trade war? trade war? trade war? Can Can Can Canada's economy withstand what Canada's economy withstand what Canada's economy withstand what America is doing? And America is doing? And America is doing? And what is what is what is Canada's response to America, Canada's response to America, Canada's response to America, given the difference in given the difference in given the difference in scale? scale? The first thing I will say is that The first thing I will say is that Canadians are very Canadians are very Canadians are very realistic realistic realistic about the fact that about the fact that about the fact that this is an asymmetrical this is an asymmetrical confrontation, confrontation, shall we say? Or is it an shall we say? Or is it an shall we say? Or is it an asymmetrical asymmetrical asymmetrical confrontation. And that confrontation. And that confrontation. And that means means means it will be more it will be more it will be more painful for Canada. Canadians painful for Canada. Canadians painful for Canada. Canadians understand this. But understand this. But understand this. But Canadians are also really Canadians are also really Canadians are also really aware of the stakes. aware of the stakes. aware of the stakes. For us, it matters more For us, it matters more For us, it matters more . And I am absolutely . And I am absolutely . And I am absolutely confident that Canadians confident that Canadians confident that Canadians will hold out until the will hold out until the will hold out until the end. So, we've end. So, we've end. So, we've been in a similar been in a similar been in a similar situation before. And situation before. And situation before. And the last time the last time the last time the United States the United States the United States imposed tariffs imposed tariffs imposed tariffs on Canada, we on Canada, we on Canada, we responded in kind responded in kind , dollar for dollar. I was the , dollar for dollar. I was the , dollar for dollar. I was the minister minister minister responsible for this.

responsible for this. responsible for this. And eventually America And eventually America And eventually America abolished its tariffs. abolished its tariffs. And the reason And the reason America abolished America abolished America abolished its tariffs was its tariffs was twofold. First, twofold. First, imposing tariffs on our imposing tariffs on our imposing tariffs on our exports to you exports to you exports to you actually hurt actually hurt actually hurt you. Here's what's you. Here's what's you. Here's what's twisted about all of this: twisted about all of this: twisted about all of this: you know, the idea that you know, the idea that America is America is America is better off when it better off when it better off when it imposes tariffs on imposes tariffs on imposes tariffs on Canadian aluminum is Canadian aluminum is Canadian aluminum is just absurd. We are just absurd. We are just absurd. We are actually doing you a actually doing you a actually doing you a favor by forcing you favor by forcing you favor by forcing you to lift these tariffs, to lift these tariffs, to lift these tariffs, because tariffs on because tariffs on because tariffs on Canadian aluminum Canadian aluminum are an attack on are an attack on are an attack on electricity. You electricity. You electricity. You choose choose choose to make to make to make electricity electricity electricity more expensive. And you also more expensive. And you also more expensive. And you also choose the choose the choose the mechanism for this? mechanism for this? mechanism for this? Well, aluminum is Well, aluminum is Well, aluminum is essentially electricity in essentially electricity in essentially electricity in solid form. That's all solid form. That's all solid form. That's all he is. That's why he is. That's why he is. That's why Quebec produces Quebec produces Quebec produces a lot of aluminum, because a lot of aluminum, because hydroelectric power is cheap there. hydroelectric power is cheap there. And when you And when you And when you put a 50% tariff put a 50% tariff put a 50% tariff on aluminum, you on aluminum, you on aluminum, you put a 50% tariff put a 50% tariff put a 50% tariff on electricity.

on electricity. The aluminum that Canada The aluminum that Canada typically exports typically exports typically exports to the United States to the United States to the United States contains the contains the equivalent of more than equivalent of more than 450 data centers, or the 450 data centers, or the 450 data centers, or the output of half a dozen output of half a dozen output of half a dozen Hoover Dams. That's a Hoover Dams. That's a Hoover Dams. That's a lot of energy. And you lot of energy. And you lot of energy. And you voluntarily choose to voluntarily choose to voluntarily choose to say, "We're say, "We're say, "We're going to make going to make going to make it 50% more expensive." That's the it 50% more expensive." That's the it 50% more expensive." That's the whole absurdity of whole absurdity of whole absurdity of these trade these trade these trade wars. wars. wars. When Trump says the When Trump says the When Trump says the goods we goods we goods we buy in Canada buy in Canada buy in Canada are getting more expensive, he is are getting more expensive, he is are getting more expensive, he is taxing things that taxing things that taxing things that Americans buy. Americans buy. Americans buy. True. True. True. That's literally true. That's literally true. That's literally true. It's like, like, exactly. That is, It's like, like, exactly. That is, It's like, like, exactly. That is, the absurdity is the absurdity is that the initial action that the initial action that the initial action that you want to take that you want to take that you want to take and try to and try to and try to implement without resistance implement without resistance implement without resistance actually harms actually harms actually harms you. you. But it also hurts But it also hurts you. you. you. True. Of course. Of course, True. Of course. Of course, True. Of course. Of course, that's true. Um, but you that's true. Um, but you that's true. Um, but you feel this pain. feel this pain. And one reason, it's a And one reason, it's a technical reason, technical reason, technical reason, Ezra, but I know you're a Ezra, but I know you're a Ezra, but I know you're a person who likes to person who likes to person who likes to delve into the delve into the delve into the details. Um, one of the details. Um, one of the details. Um, one of the reasons, one of the reasons, one of the reasons, one of the advantages that Canada has in the advantages that Canada has in the advantages that Canada has in the trade trade trade dispute with the dispute with the dispute with the United States, United States, United States, and one of the reasons why and one of the reasons why and one of the reasons why imposing tariffs on imposing tariffs on imposing tariffs on Canada is so Canada is so Canada is so senseless—is that senseless—is that senseless—is that we export to you we export to you we export to you mostly intermediate mostly intermediate mostly intermediate goods. So what we goods. So what we goods. So what we sell you are sell you are sell you are mostly things that mostly things that mostly things that you use you use you use to create your to create your to create your own products. And own products. And own products. And so, by imposing tariffs on so, by imposing tariffs on so, by imposing tariffs on goods that we goods that we goods that we sell, sell, sell, examples of intermediate examples of intermediate examples of intermediate goods.

goods. goods. So, aluminum is an So, aluminum is an So, aluminum is an intermediate good. Very intermediate good. Very intermediate good. Very few people come few people come few people come into a store and say, "I'd into a store and say, "I'd into a store and say, "I'd like to buy a ton of like to buy a ton of like to buy a ton of aluminum." Um, aluminum." Um, aluminum." Um, aluminum aluminum aluminum is used, is used, is used, you know, by companies you know, by companies you know, by companies to make to make to make things. Um, another things. Um, another things. Um, another very good example very good example is the softwood lumber that is the softwood lumber that is the softwood lumber that we export to you. we export to you. Few people buy just Few people buy just a tree, but people a tree, but people a tree, but people buy a house or a buy a house or a buy a house or a table. Potash is another table. Potash is another table. Potash is another great example. Um, great example. Um, great example. Um, farmers are buying farmers are buying farmers are buying potash. I grew up on a potash. I grew up on a potash. I grew up on a farm, so, um, farm, so, um, farm, so, um, actually farmers actually farmers actually farmers don't even buy don't even buy don't even buy raw potash, they raw potash, they raw potash, they buy potash that's buy potash that's buy potash that's been processed into been processed into been processed into fertilizer. Um, but everyone fertilizer. Um, but everyone fertilizer. Um, but everyone uses potash uses potash because we like to eat. because we like to eat. So, you know, tariffs on So, you know, tariffs on Canadian goods Canadian goods Canadian goods make things more expensive in the make things more expensive in the make things more expensive in the United States United States United States . And then . And then . And then Canadian Canadian Canadian response measures really response measures really response measures really have an impact. It's have an impact. It's have an impact. It's true that true that true that Canada's economy is smaller than Canada's economy is smaller than Canada's economy is smaller than America's, America's, America's, obviously. It's true obviously. It's true obviously. It's true that Canada is generally that Canada is generally that Canada is generally more dependent on more dependent on more dependent on trade than the trade than the trade than the United States, United States, United States, obviously. But we obviously. But we obviously. But we were actually your were actually your were actually your biggest market, biggest market, biggest market, bigger than China, bigger than China, bigger than China, Japan, and the Japan, and the Japan, and the UK UK UK combined.

combined. combined. So, can you So, can you So, can you describe, because I think describe, because I think describe, because I think Americans should Americans should Americans should think about what this think about what this think about what this might mean for might mean for might mean for our economy? Just like our economy? Just like China has targeted China has targeted important parts of the important parts of the important parts of the American American American manufacturing process, manufacturing process, manufacturing process, such as such as such as rare earth rare earth rare earth magnets, etc. It seems magnets, etc. It seems magnets, etc. It seems that Canada believes that Canada believes that Canada believes that it can cause that it can cause that it can cause excessive harm by excessive harm by excessive harm by focusing, focusing, focusing, for example, on the for example, on the for example, on the automotive industry. automotive industry. Yes, look, these are the basics of Yes, look, these are the basics of trade trade trade policy. This is not something policy. This is not something policy. This is not something Canada invented. This is what Canada invented. This is what Canada invented. This is what we did in we did in we did in 2018. By the way, in 2018 the 2018. By the way, in 2018 the EU joined us, which EU joined us, which was very important. And I would was very important. And I would was very important. And I would really like the EU to really like the EU to really like the EU to join this join this join this time. In 2018, time. In 2018, time. In 2018, the EU and the EU and the EU and Mexico joined us. The way Mexico joined us. The way Mexico joined us. The way to respond is to to respond is to to respond is to do two do two do two things. To inflict things. To inflict things. To inflict maximum pain on maximum pain on maximum pain on your opponent.

your opponent. your opponent. I don't even I don't even I don't even like like like using those using those using those terms when referring to the terms when referring to the terms when referring to the United States, because United States, because United States, because Canadians really don't Canadians really don't Canadians really don't wish Americans any wish Americans any wish Americans any harm. They simply harm. They simply harm. They simply want to avoid being want to avoid being want to avoid being subject to subject to subject to unjustified and unjustified and unjustified and illegal duties. But illegal duties. But illegal duties. But once you once you once you find yourself in such a find yourself in such a find yourself in such a situation, you want situation, you want situation, you want to exert, say, to exert, say, to exert, say, maximum pressure on the maximum pressure on the maximum pressure on the other side and other side and other side and minimal pain for minimal pain for minimal pain for yourself. So, yourself. So, yourself. So, the least painful thing for the least painful thing for the least painful thing for yourself is to try to yourself is to try to yourself is to try to avoid imposing tariffs avoid imposing tariffs avoid imposing tariffs on intermediate goods. on intermediate goods. on intermediate goods. You don't want your You don't want your You don't want your own economy to own economy to own economy to suffer. You don't suffer. You don't suffer. You don't want your want your want your own producers to own producers to own producers to suffer. You suffer. You suffer. You are trying are trying are trying to impose counter-tariffs to impose counter-tariffs to impose counter-tariffs on goods that are easily on goods that are easily on goods that are easily substituted. And then you substituted. And then you substituted. And then you try try try to tailor your to tailor your to tailor your response so that response so that response so that it hits it hits it hits politically sensitive politically sensitive politically sensitive constituencies. So, constituencies. So, constituencies. So, you look at who the you look at who the you look at who the influential influential influential senators are? Who are the senators are? Who are the senators are? Who are the influential members of influential members of influential members of Congress? Which Congress? Which Congress? Which swing states are swing states are swing states are important to the White important to the White important to the White House? And you House? And you House? And you try to try to try to make sure that your make sure that your make sure that your response hits the spot response hits the spot response hits the spot , so that people , so that people , so that people realize that tariffs realize that tariffs realize that tariffs are hurting them. So are hurting them. So are hurting them. So Smucker's jam, this was in Smucker's jam, this was in Smucker's jam, this was in 2018, turned out to be a 2018, turned out to be a 2018, turned out to be a great target, it's great target, it's great target, it's made in Ohio.

made in Ohio. And I spoke with And I spoke with Sherrod Brown, Sherrod Brown, Sherrod Brown, who, you know, you wouldn't who, you know, you wouldn't who, you know, you wouldn't expect to defend expect to defend expect to defend Trump's Trump's Trump's trade policies. And trade policies. And trade policies. And I want to clarify, he I want to clarify, he I want to clarify, he wasn't like that. He's a wasn't like that. He's a wasn't like that. He's a great guy, was a great guy, was a great guy, was a great partner, and great partner, and great partner, and ultimately ultimately ultimately supported our supported our supported our revised agreement. revised agreement. But one day he said to But one day he said to me, “Could you me, “Could you me, “Could you slow down with the slow down with the slow down with the Smucker’s jam, Smucker’s jam, Smucker’s jam, please? "This is really please? "This is really please? "This is really hurting my hurting my hurting my constituents." And I constituents." And I constituents." And I said, “Sherrod, said, “Sherrod, said, “Sherrod, with all due respect, that’s the with all due respect, that’s the with all due respect, that’s the point. We point. We point. We want your want your want your constituents to complain to constituents to complain to constituents to complain to you. And we want you. And we want you. And we want you to come out and say you to come out and say you to come out and say that people could that people could that people could lose their jobs lose their jobs lose their jobs because of Trump's stupid because of Trump's stupid because of Trump's stupid trade war trade war trade war with Canada. And I'll with Canada. And I'll with Canada. And I'll give you one give you one give you one example of how this example of how this example of how this starts to work. You starts to work. You may have heard that there is a may have heard that there is a may have heard that there is a pretty pretty pretty important race going on in Michigan for a important race going on in Michigan for a important race going on in Michigan for a Senate seat. Senate seat. Senate seat. I heard about it. I heard about it. I heard about it. Yes. Yes. The Yes. Yes. The Yes. Yes. The Republican candidate shot Republican candidate shot Republican candidate shot an ad where he drinks an ad where he drinks an ad where he drinks Labatt Canadian beer and Labatt Canadian beer and Labatt Canadian beer and says how says how says how terrible these tariffs are terrible these tariffs are .

. Drinking Labatt's and rooting Drinking Labatt's and rooting for the Red Wings, man, it does for the Red Wings, man, it does n't get more Michigan-esque. And here in n't get more Michigan-esque. And here in Michigan, we know Michigan, we know Michigan, we know that Canada is not our that Canada is not our that Canada is not our enemy. We must enemy. We must enemy. We must stop this tariff stop this tariff stop this tariff war now. war now. So, a Republican, So, a Republican, who, you know, is who, you know, is who, you know, is part of the party that's part of the party that's part of the party that's implementing these implementing these implementing these tariffs, is doing everything he tariffs, is doing everything he tariffs, is doing everything he can, including can, including can, including visual cues, visual cues, visual cues, to say, "I'm on to say, "I'm on to say, "I'm on Canada's side." Canada's side." Canada's side." So, you were a So, you were a So, you were a key figure in the key figure in the key figure in the trade trade trade negotiations between negotiations between negotiations between Canada and America Canada and America Canada and America during during during Trump's first term. How was this Trump's first term. How was this Trump's first term. How was this resolved? Why didn't it resolved? Why didn't it resolved? Why didn't it develop into what develop into what develop into what we see now? we see now? Well, it's outgrown. Well, it's outgrown. But not what we But not what we But not what we have now. have now. Actually, it wasn't Actually, it wasn't very far. The night very far. The night very far. The night before the before the before the trade sanctions trade sanctions trade sanctions took effect, took effect, took effect, President Trump President Trump President Trump called called called then-Prime then-Prime Minister Trudeau and Minister Trudeau and Minister Trudeau and threatened to threatened to threatened to destroy the Canadian destroy the Canadian destroy the Canadian economy if economy if economy if Canada did not back down.

Canada did not back down. He said he should have He said he should have fired me and fired me and fired me and called me a called me a called me a vile woman. And, vile woman. And, vile woman. And, you know, I really you know, I really you know, I really respect respect respect Justin Trudeau for standing up to the Justin Trudeau for standing up to the pressure. You pressure. You saw then the same thing you saw then the same thing you saw then the same thing you see now, which is that see now, which is that see now, which is that Canadians Canadians Canadians understood the stakes and understood the stakes and understood the stakes and supported these actions. supported these actions. We had, you know, a We had, you know, a tense tense tense trade trade trade conflict, but we conflict, but we conflict, but we reached an agreement. We reached an agreement. We reached an agreement. We reached a deal that reached a deal that reached a deal that Donald Trump called Donald Trump called Donald Trump called the best deal ever, the best deal ever, the best deal ever, that Nancy that Nancy that Nancy Pelosi supported, and that Pelosi supported, and that Pelosi supported, and that Sherrod Sherrod Sherrod Brown voted for. So, we had a Brown voted for. So, we had a Brown voted for. So, we had a struggle, and we struggle, and we struggle, and we came to a came to a came to a positive positive positive result. One of the result. One of the result. One of the things that really things that really things that really helped was the helped was the helped was the support of support of support of Republican Republican Republican allies. You know, allies. You know, allies. You know, people like John people like John people like John McCain, Chuck Grassley, McCain, Chuck Grassley, McCain, Chuck Grassley, and even, eventually, Bob and even, eventually, Bob and even, eventually, Bob Lighthizer, who was the Lighthizer, who was the U.S. Trade Representative, with U.S. Trade Representative, with whom I had a whom I had a whom I had a lot of tense lot of tense lot of tense moments. But at the end of the day moments. But at the end of the day , he's a very, very , he's a very, very , he's a very, very smart, very, very smart, very, very smart, very, very experienced experienced experienced trade trade trade negotiator, and he negotiator, and he negotiator, and he actually understood that it was actually understood that it was actually understood that it was in the best interest of the in the best interest of the in the best interest of the United States to United States to United States to have a trade have a trade have a trade deal with Canada. So I deal with Canada. So I deal with Canada. So I think for these reasons think for these reasons think for these reasons and thanks to such and thanks to such and thanks to such votes on our part, votes on our part, votes on our part, we were able to make a we were able to make a we were able to make a deal.

deal. deal. So, is this what you So, is this what you So, is this what you mean when you say mean when you say mean when you say that Trump wasn't that that Trump wasn't that that Trump wasn't that different between the two different between the two different between the two terms, but in the terms, but in the terms, but in the first term he first term he first term he had, judging by your had, judging by your had, judging by your description, less description, less description, less control over the control over the control over the Republican Republican Republican Party. There were Party. There were Party. There were more independent more independent more independent voices, you know, that voices, you know, that voices, you know, that had their own centers of had their own centers of had their own centers of influence, much more influence, much more than today. than today. than today. Think of John Think of John Think of John McCain, think McCain, think McCain, think of Paul Ryan during that of Paul Ryan during that of Paul Ryan during that period. And period. And period. And Trump's staff didn't treat Trump's staff didn't treat Trump's staff didn't treat him the way they do now— him the way they do now— as a great as a great as a great historical figure who cannot be historical figure who cannot be historical figure who cannot be questioned and questioned and questioned and whose impulses, whose impulses, whose impulses, in fact, should be in fact, should be in fact, should be accelerated. That is, there accelerated. That is, there accelerated. That is, there were people there who were people there who were people there who also tried also tried also tried to direct and to direct and to direct and restrain Trump, restrain Trump, restrain Trump, even if they even if they even if they agreed with him on agreed with him on agreed with him on certain aspects of certain aspects of certain aspects of what he wanted to do. what he wanted to do. what he wanted to do. Yes, I think that's Yes, I think that's Yes, I think that's right. And, you know, right. And, you know, right. And, you know, I think that when you I think that when you I think that when you 're the leader of a country or 're the leader of a country or 're the leader of a country or even a minister, even a minister, even a minister, the job of the people around the job of the people around the job of the people around you is to you is to you is to help you help you help you achieve what achieve what achieve what you want, but also to you want, but also to you want, but also to stop you from doing stop you from doing stop you from doing stupid things. And sometimes stupid things. And sometimes stupid things. And sometimes the way to help you the way to help you the way to help you achieve what you achieve what you achieve what you want is to tell want is to tell want is to tell you "no." You know, I would you "no." You know, I would you "no." You know, I would say the war in say the war in say the war in Iran is a great Iran is a great Iran is a great example. President example. President example. President Trump would have been much more Trump would have been much more Trump would have been much more effective if effective if effective if America had not started America had not started America had not started that "war of choice that "war of choice ." So the people around him

." So the people around him ." So the people around him , if they , if they , if they could convince could convince could convince him not to fight that him not to fight that him not to fight that war, would be doing him a war, would be doing him a war, would be doing him a favor. And I think you favor. And I think you favor. And I think you know that that has know that that has know that that has definitely decreased. definitely decreased. definitely decreased. But the other thing I would But the other thing I would But the other thing I would say, Ezra, and it's a say, Ezra, and it's a say, Ezra, and it's a big difference, and you're big difference, and you're big difference, and you're American, I'm not, so American, I'm not, so maybe you can explain maybe you can explain maybe you can explain that difference to me. I that difference to me. I that difference to me. I think the big, think the big, big difference is that the big difference is that the capitulation to the capitulation to the president president president seems to have spread seems to have spread seems to have spread throughout America. It throughout America. It seems much seems much broader than it was broader than it was broader than it was during the first during the first during the first Trump administration Trump administration . And, you know, . And, you know, . And, you know, inevitably, that seems to inevitably, that seems to embolden the president. And for America's friends and allies, it makes America's friends and allies, it makes people ask: Does people ask: Does people ask: Does this apply just to the this apply just to the this apply just to the president, or to the entire president, or to the entire president, or to the entire country? country? I think that was I think that was more true in the first more true in the first more true in the first 8-10 months, probably, 8-10 months, probably, 8-10 months, probably, than it is now. I really than it is now. I really than it is now. I really think that happened.

think that happened. think that happened. But do you think But do you think But do you think the situation is starting the situation is starting the situation is starting to change? to change? I don't think I don't think civil civil civil society, the society, the society, the Democratic Party, Democratic Party, Democratic Party, or the country in general, or the country in general, or the country in general, you know, bows you know, bows you know, bows to Trump in the way to Trump in the way to Trump in the way we saw with we saw with we saw with law firms law firms law firms and universities in the and universities in the and universities in the early months. I early months. I early months. I think the biggest think the biggest think the biggest problem is the problem is the problem is the Republican Republican Republican Party. And when Party. And when Party. And when President Trump has a President Trump has a President Trump has a Republican Republican Republican majority in Congress, majority in Congress, majority in Congress, and the political system is and the political system is and the political system is structured in such a way that the structured in such a way that the president's president's primary check is Congress, primary check is Congress, primary check is Congress, which cares about its which cares about its which cares about its prerogatives and is prerogatives and is prerogatives and is committed to committed to committed to national national national interests, if interests, if interests, if Congress is captivated, Congress is captivated, Congress is captivated, if it is intimidated, if it is intimidated, then there are then there are no real checks. And it's no real checks. And it's no real checks. And it's not about not about not about American American American society, as you society, as you society, as you well know; I well know; I well know; I find it surprising that find it surprising that find it surprising that a poll shows that a poll shows that Prime Minister Prime Minister Mark Carney's tariff measures against Mark Carney's tariff measures against Mark Carney's tariff measures against Donald Trump are Donald Trump are Donald Trump are more popular among more popular among more popular among Americans than Americans than Americans than Donald Donald Donald Trump's tariffs on Canada.

Trump's tariffs on Canada. That is, literally, in a That is, literally, in a trade war, trade war, Americans are siding with Americans are siding with Canada in polls. But there's Canada in polls. But there's Canada in polls. But there's something else—I think something else—I think something else—I think you're slightly you're slightly you're slightly underestimating underestimating underestimating how different how different how different Trump's second term is Trump's second term is Trump's second term is from his from his from his first. Because even in first. Because even in first. Because even in the story you the story you the story you tell in the book, the tell in the book, the tell in the book, the trade trade trade negotiations during negotiations during Trump's first term seem Trump's first term seem genuinely genuinely genuinely trade-related. And trade-related. And trade-related. And ultimately they ultimately they ultimately they are resolved by are resolved by are resolved by trade issues. And trade issues. And trade issues. And that may be true that may be true that may be true now. But now. But now. But trade trade trade negotiations during negotiations during Trump's second term appear to be a Trump's second term appear to be a matter of domination and matter of domination and matter of domination and tribute. Trump is tribute. Trump is tribute. Trump is so offended by so offended by so offended by Canada's unwillingness to Canada's unwillingness to Canada's unwillingness to become the 51st state that become the 51st state that become the 51st state that it can't be it can't be it can't be solved simply by, solved simply by, solved simply by, say, raising say, raising say, raising labor standards in labor standards in auto manufacturing. Where auto manufacturing. Where Trump got this from is an Trump got this from is an interesting question, but interesting question, but interesting question, but it is it is it is much much much more evident in his second term than in his more evident in his second term than in his more evident in his second term than in his first. first. first. You are absolutely right. And You are absolutely right. And You are absolutely right. And I think it I think it I think it always has been. I think it always has been. I think it always has been. I think it was always there—I would was always there—I would was always there—I would n't even call it n't even call it n't even call it hidden, it was hidden, it was hidden, it was more than just more than just more than just hidden. There hidden. There hidden. There was always this desire for was always this desire for was always this desire for dominance. But you are dominance. But you are dominance. But you are absolutely right that absolutely right that absolutely right that in this in this in this iteration it has become iteration it has become iteration it has become quite explicit. And I

quite explicit. And I quite explicit. And I believe that believe that believe that Trump's Washington offers Trump's Washington offers Trump's Washington offers the rest of the world a choice: the rest of the world a choice: the rest of the world a choice: either become a vassal either become a vassal either become a vassal or fight for the right or fight for the right or fight for the right to be equal. And each to be equal. And each to be equal. And each country has to country has to country has to decide which path decide which path decide which path to choose. If you choose the to choose. If you choose the to choose. If you choose the path of a vassal, then, like path of a vassal, then, like path of a vassal, then, like Delcy Rodriguez, Delcy Rodriguez, Delcy Rodriguez, negotiate the negotiate the negotiate the best possible best possible best possible terms terms terms of submission. of submission. Of course, this will never be the Of course, this will never be the path path path Canada will choose. So, as Canada will choose. So, as Canada will choose. So, as you said, Ezra, it's you said, Ezra, it's you said, Ezra, it's harder to figure out what harder to figure out what harder to figure out what to do. In a to do. In a to do. In a way, it's easier, because way, it's easier, because way, it's easier, because while the situation while the situation while the situation Canada finds itself in is Canada finds itself in is Canada finds itself in is dire, there is a dire, there is a dire, there is a deep deep deep national national national consensus: with consensus: with consensus: with our sovereignty at our sovereignty at our sovereignty at stake, the only thing we stake, the only thing we stake, the only thing we have to do is have to do is have to do is stand up for ourselves. And stand up for ourselves. And stand up for ourselves. And you know that this is you know that this is you know that this is the position of the current the position of the current the position of the current Liberal government.

Liberal government. But Stephen Harper, But Stephen Harper, who was the Conservative prime minister for a very long time who was the Conservative prime minister for a very long time , said in , said in early 2025, when early 2025, when early 2025, when the issue of sovereignty the issue of sovereignty the issue of sovereignty first came up in first came up in first came up in earnest, that earnest, that earnest, that Canada must be Canada must be Canada must be willing to pay willing to pay willing to pay any economic any economic any economic price when it comes price when it comes price when it comes to defending our to defending our to defending our sovereignty. So, I sovereignty. So, I sovereignty. So, I think and hope think and hope think and hope that Americans that Americans that Americans would agree that would agree that would agree that if they were in if they were in if they were in our shoes, they would our shoes, they would our shoes, they would hold the hold the hold the same opinion. And same opinion. And same opinion. And perhaps the survey you mentioned perhaps the survey you mentioned perhaps the survey you mentioned about about about tariffs indicates tariffs indicates tariffs indicates just that. just that. just that. Well, it seems to me Well, it seems to me Well, it seems to me that this is a case that this is a case that this is a case where Donald Trump where Donald Trump where Donald Trump has deeply underestimated has deeply underestimated has deeply underestimated or or or misunderstood the psychology of misunderstood the psychology of misunderstood the psychology of other people and other other people and other other people and other countries, because the essence of the countries, because the essence of the Trump administration's approach Trump administration's approach is purely transactional. is purely transactional. America is bigger. We America is bigger. We should get should get should get more. Bob more. Bob more. Bob Lighthizer, the former Lighthizer, the former Lighthizer, the former trade representative trade representative , once told you , once told you , once told you during trade during trade during trade negotiations—you negotiations—you negotiations—you write about this in the book write about this in the book —that —that —that America's economy is ten times America's economy is ten times America's economy is ten times larger than Canada's.

larger than Canada's. larger than Canada's. He should achieve He should achieve He should achieve his goal ten times more his goal ten times more his goal ten times more often than you. The thing is often than you. The thing is often than you. The thing is that people in their that people in their that people in their souls are not guided by souls are not guided by souls are not guided by such purely such purely such purely transactional transactional transactional principles as Trump. principles as Trump. So it’s easy to So it’s easy to imagine a world in which imagine a world in which imagine a world in which Prime Prime Minister Carney’s decision to walk away Minister Carney’s decision to walk away Minister Carney’s decision to walk away from the from the from the negotiating table with negotiating table with negotiating table with Trump, who was Trump, who was Trump, who was threatening Canada with threatening Canada with threatening Canada with extremely damaging extremely damaging extremely damaging tariffs, would be an tariffs, would be an tariffs, would be an unpopular move. unpopular move. According to some According to some polls, polls, polls, he is currently the most popular he is currently the most popular he is currently the most popular prime minister in prime minister in prime minister in Canadian history. It could be Canadian history. It could be Canadian history. It could be argued that it was argued that it was argued that it was Trump who elected Carney with Trump who elected Carney with Trump who elected Carney with his threats to his threats to his threats to Canadian Canadian Canadian sovereignty, as the sovereignty, as the sovereignty, as the Conservative Party Conservative Party Conservative Party in Canada was gaining in Canada was gaining in Canada was gaining popularity until popularity until popularity until Trump united Trump united Trump united Canada against him. And I Canada against him. And I Canada against him. And I think that's very think that's very think that's very important, because it important, because it important, because it brings us to the brings us to the brings us to the question of whether question of whether Trump's foreign policy will be effective, Trump's foreign policy will be effective, right? Is right? Is right? Is it delivering on its promises to it delivering on its promises to it delivering on its promises to make America make America make America stronger and stronger and stronger and richer? If you richer? If you richer? If you misunderstand misunderstand people's reactions, if you people's reactions, if you think you're going to get think you're going to get think you're going to get them to accept a better them to accept a better them to accept a better deal, when in reality you're deal, when in reality you're deal, when in reality you're just turning them just turning them just turning them against you for against you for reasons other than financial. For example, if you reasons other than financial. For example, if you unite them unite them unite them spiritually against you, spiritually against you, spiritually against you, then your foreign then your foreign then your foreign policy will policy will policy will collapse.

collapse. collapse. Yes, listen, I think Yes, listen, I think you're absolutely right. you're absolutely right. And I would even go further And I would even go further . It seems to me . It seems to me . It seems to me that there is a huge that there is a huge that there is a huge miscalculation when it miscalculation when it miscalculation when it comes to what the comes to what the comes to what the impact will be on other impact will be on other impact will be on other countries. I would say that countries. I would say that countries. I would say that the world's capitulation the world's capitulation the world's capitulation contributed to the contributed to the contributed to the Trump administration Trump administration Trump administration believing that it would believing that it would believing that it would work, because in the work, because in the work, because in the beginning it wasn't just the beginning it wasn't just the beginning it wasn't just the Americans who Americans who Americans who tried to tried to tried to appease. So appease. So appease. So did most of the did most of the did most of the rest of the world. So, I won't rest of the world. So, I won't rest of the world. So, I won't say it's say it's say it's justified, but it's easier justified, but it's easier justified, but it's easier to understand why, when to understand why, when to understand why, when the day of liberation, the so- the day of liberation, the so- the day of liberation, the so- called " called " called " liberation day," liberation day," liberation day," was met with appeasement, the was met with appeasement, the was met with appeasement, the Trump team Trump team Trump team said, "Hey, it's said, "Hey, it's said, "Hey, it's working." Let's working." Let's working." Let's describe what you mean by describe what you mean by reconciliation. reconciliation. Well, countries that Well, countries that Well, countries that agree to agree to agree to impose impose impose unilateral tariffs. Hmm unilateral tariffs. Hmm , impressive, indeed. And , impressive, indeed. And , impressive, indeed. And you know, you know, you know, Trump administration officials Trump administration officials Trump administration officials themselves said when these themselves said when these themselves said when these tariffs were first tariffs were first tariffs were first proposed that proposed that proposed that they expected they expected they expected retaliation from other retaliation from other retaliation from other countries. But most of the countries. But most of the countries. But most of the world didn't world didn't world didn't . The exceptions . The exceptions . The exceptions were China and Canada.

were China and Canada. were China and Canada. This was a mistake. So I This was a mistake. So I This was a mistake. So I agree with your agree with your agree with your statement that peer pressure statement that peer pressure won't actually make them give in won't actually make them give in and do what you and do what you and do what you want. But I would add want. But I would add want. But I would add one more nuance to one more nuance to one more nuance to this, Ezra. Namely: this, Ezra. Namely: this, Ezra. Namely: even if this even if this even if this approach to trade, in approach to trade, in approach to trade, in quotes, worked, and quotes, worked, and quotes, worked, and you forced you forced you forced partners to actually partners to actually partners to actually give in and accept the give in and accept the approach imposed by the United States, it would be a approach imposed by the United States, it would be a bad outcome bad outcome bad outcome for the United for the United for the United States itself. States itself. So let's go back to So let's go back to that quote from that quote from that quote from Lighthizer, which I Lighthizer, which I Lighthizer, which I find very find very find very revealing. revealing. revealing. America's economy is ten times America's economy is ten times America's economy is ten times bigger than yours, so we bigger than yours, so we bigger than yours, so we should achieve should achieve should achieve our goals ten times more our goals ten times more our goals ten times more often. The consequence is an often. The consequence is an often. The consequence is an obvious obvious obvious realistic view realistic view realistic view of international of international of international relations in a relations in a relations in a world where America world where America world where America behaves in exactly this way.

behaves in exactly this way. If we are ten times If we are ten times bigger than you bigger than you bigger than you economically and many economically and many economically and many times more powerful times more powerful times more powerful militarily, we militarily, we militarily, we constantly pose a constantly pose a constantly pose a huge threat to you huge threat to you huge threat to you . In a world where a . In a world where a . In a world where a Western superpower Western superpower Western superpower poses a threat poses a threat poses a threat to everyone in to everyone in to everyone in its sphere of influence, which is to say, its sphere of influence, which is to say, its sphere of influence, which is to say, everyone, other countries everyone, other countries everyone, other countries may make may make may make deals with us in deals with us in deals with us in the short the short the short term, but in the term, but in the term, but in the background they are background they are background they are banding together to banding together to banding together to contain our contain our contain our threat in the threat in the threat in the long long long term. So, in the term. So, in the term. So, in the last couple of years, last couple of years, last couple of years, I mean two years, I mean two years, I mean two years, Canada has signed a Canada has signed a Canada has signed a trade agreement with trade agreement with trade agreement with China. China. Not quite so. Not quite so. How would you describe it? How would you describe it? How would you describe it? This is This is This is This is This is This is , well, a trade , well, a trade , well, a trade deal—this is serious, deal—this is serious, deal—this is serious, but Canada made a but Canada made a but Canada made a deal with China. How do you like deal with China. How do you like deal with China. How do you like it? It was it? It was it? It was China that began to China that began to China that began to establish establish establish closer trade closer trade closer trade ties with China and ties with China and ties with China and openly declare openly declare openly declare this. this. this. Yes, yes, and yes. Yes, yes, and yes. Yes, yes, and yes. Canada, instead of Canada, instead of Canada, instead of becoming the 51st state, becoming the 51st state, becoming the 51st state, started talking about started talking about started talking about the possibility of becoming an the possibility of becoming an the possibility of becoming an associate member of the associate member of the associate member of the European Union, European Union, European Union, which I did not which I did not which I did not expect at all.

expect at all. Really? Really? Yes. Yes. Yes. A. I Canadians really A. I Canadians really A. I Canadians really hoped that this would hoped that this would hoped that this would happen. happen. happen. Wait, so tell Wait, so tell Wait, so tell me, tell me more about it me, tell me more about it me, tell me more about it . Why, . Why, . Why, why did Canadians want why did Canadians want why did Canadians want to be an associate to be an associate to be an associate member of the EU, and not our member of the EU, and not our member of the EU, and not our proud 51st state? proud 51st state? proud 51st state? Oh God, Ezra, don't say Oh God, Ezra, don't say Oh God, Ezra, don't say that. We can't, that. We can't, that. We can't, uh...Canada won't be the uh...Canada won't be the 51st state. Let 51st state. Let 51st state. Let me be clear: I me be clear: I me be clear: I know you didn't know you didn't know you didn't mean anything mean anything mean anything bad, but we don't bad, but we don't bad, but we don't take this as a joke take this as a joke . As for the EU, this is something . As for the EU, this is something . As for the EU, this is something we started talking about we started talking about we started talking about during the first during the first during the first Trump administration Trump administration , half-jokingly. Because , half-jokingly. Because , half-jokingly. Because just a few weeks just a few weeks just a few weeks before before before President Trump was President Trump was President Trump was first elected, Canada first elected, Canada first elected, Canada signed a signed a signed a free trade agreement with the EU. free trade agreement with the EU. I was the main I was the main participant in the participant in the participant in the negotiations. And what negotiations. And what negotiations. And what not everyone understands is that not everyone understands is that not everyone understands is that this agreement this agreement this agreement is actually is actually is actually much deeper on paper than the much deeper on paper than the much deeper on paper than the USMCA. Because it USMCA. Because it USMCA. Because it includes government includes government includes government procurement. So, procurement. So, procurement. So, Canada and the EU have opened Canada and the EU have opened Canada and the EU have opened government procurement to government procurement to government procurement to each other. So each other. So each other. So we had this base. And we had this base. And we had this base. And then, when Trump then, when Trump then, when Trump was first elected and he was first elected and he was first elected and he started putting pressure on us with started putting pressure on us with started putting pressure on us with tariffs, we had already become tariffs, we had already become tariffs, we had already become friends through friends through friends through the negotiations on CETA, the negotiations on CETA, the negotiations on CETA, our trade agreement our trade agreement our trade agreement with Europe. And we

with Europe. And we have been discussing with the EU quite regularly, half-jokingly: have been discussing with the EU quite regularly, half-jokingly: if NAFTA falls apart, if NAFTA falls apart, if NAFTA falls apart, if our trade if our trade if our trade deal with the United deal with the United deal with the United States doesn't work, States doesn't work, States doesn't work, will the Europeans allow us will the Europeans allow us will the Europeans allow us to become to become to become members? And it members? And it members? And it even got to the point where even got to the point where even got to the point where Cecilia Malmström, a Cecilia Malmström, a Cecilia Malmström, a wonderful Swedish wonderful Swedish wonderful Swedish liberal, was the liberal, was the EU's trade commissioner. She had a deal EU's trade commissioner. She had a deal with the US, and so did I. We with the US, and so did I. We with the US, and so did I. We corresponded and corresponded and corresponded and talked, talked, talked, developing a code: developing a code: developing a code: if you say "I'm in if you say "I'm in if you say "I'm in Mordor," it means Mordor," it means Mordor," it means "I'm in Washington." "I'm in Washington." Cecilia once Cecilia once sent me sent me sent me a message: " a message: " Gandalf is going to Mordor Gandalf is going to Mordor Gandalf is going to Mordor next week." It next week." It was obvious to me was obvious to me what this meant: Angela what this meant: Angela what this meant: Angela Merkel was going to Merkel was going to Merkel was going to Washington. In this Washington. In this Washington. In this cipher, the elves were cipher, the elves were cipher, the elves were Europeans. Hobbits are Europeans. Hobbits are Canadian. I didn't Canadian. I didn't Canadian. I didn't mind. I am very mind. I am very mind. I am very small. I don't have small. I don't have small. I don't have huge feet, but huge feet, but huge feet, but in other ways I'm not in other ways I'm not in other ways I'm not much different from a much different from a much different from a hobbit. Grew up on a hobbit. Grew up on a hobbit. Grew up on a farm and stuff. And, farm and stuff. And, farm and stuff. And, of course, I think you of course, I think you of course, I think you know who know who know who Sauron was.

Sauron was. Sauron was. So you were constantly So you were constantly So you were constantly traveling back and forth traveling back and forth from the Shire? from the Shire? from the Shire? Yes. Oh, definitely. I'd Yes. Oh, definitely. I'd Yes. Oh, definitely. I'd say it's definitely say it's definitely say it's definitely safe back in the Shire. safe back in the Shire. safe back in the Shire. And, by the way, I And, by the way, I And, by the way, I felt it. I felt felt it. I felt felt it. I felt this relief. this relief. This is the flip side of This is the flip side of this this this deal-making strategy: you deal-making strategy: you deal-making strategy: you make people make people make people perceive you as a perceive you as a perceive you as a threat, which means threat, which means threat, which means they start they start they start thinking about how to create thinking about how to create thinking about how to create protection against you. And in protection against you. And in protection against you. And in the long the long the long run, it's run, it's run, it's classic classic classic international relations theory international relations theory : figure out how to : figure out how to : figure out how to weaken and weaken and weaken and undermine you. undermine you. undermine you. 100% correct. I mean, the 100% correct. I mean, the Trump administration is Trump administration is unwittingly revealing the unwittingly revealing the unwittingly revealing the genius of the genius of the genius of the postwar postwar postwar American American American establishment. And establishment. And establishment. And you know, what they you know, what they you know, what they did is actually did is actually did is actually impressive. They created an impressive. They created an impressive. They created an alliance based on the alliance based on the alliance based on the idea that they would be better off idea that they would be better off if their allies if their allies if their allies were stronger and were stronger and were stronger and richer. They richer. They richer. They actually invested actually invested actually invested in the post-war reconstruction of in the post-war reconstruction of in the post-war reconstruction of Germany and Japan.

Germany and Japan. In fact, after In fact, after World World World War II, America War II, America War II, America found itself in a position of found itself in a position of found itself in a position of unrivaled unrivaled unrivaled dominance. And she dominance. And she dominance. And she decided to build an decided to build an decided to build an alliance. And you know, from the alliance. And you know, from the alliance. And you know, from the perspective of a country that perspective of a country that perspective of a country that is not America, it is very is not America, it is very is not America, it is very easy to complain about this easy to complain about this easy to complain about this alliance. By the way, when alliance. By the way, when alliance. By the way, when you're not in the room, you're not in the room, you're not in the room, we always do this, we always do this, we always do this, right? And it right? And it right? And it was never a truly was never a truly was never a truly equal equal equal partnership. America has partnership. America has partnership. America has always been first always been first always been first among equals. But among equals. But among equals. But America actually America actually America actually listened to its listened to its listened to its allies. America allies. America allies. America was guided by this was guided by this was guided by this general idea: this is a general idea: this is a general idea: this is a partnership where partnership where partnership where everyone wins, we everyone wins, we everyone wins, we will grow richer will grow richer will grow richer together, that the prosperity of together, that the prosperity of together, that the prosperity of any country any country any country among our allies is among our allies is among our allies is not a threat, but rather not a threat, but rather not a threat, but rather a help to us, and that we have an a help to us, and that we have an a help to us, and that we have an interest in interest in interest in each other's security. each other's security.

And that, you know, is such a And that, you know, is such a great idea. And a great great idea. And a great great idea. And a great idea for America. idea for America. Actually, this is what Actually, this is what distinguished America distinguished America distinguished America from the Soviet from the Soviet from the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union. The Soviet Union. The Soviet Union certainly had no Union certainly had no Union certainly had no partners. He partners. He partners. He only had vassals. The same only had vassals. The same only had vassals. The same with China. This is with China. This is with China. This is what made America a what made America a what made America a special special special superpower. And when superpower. And when superpower. And when Timothy Snyder Timothy Snyder Timothy Snyder talks about talks about superpower suicide, he superpower suicide, he means that America is means that America is means that America is voluntarily voluntarily voluntarily destroying it. And I think destroying it. And I think destroying it. And I think you are absolutely right. you are absolutely right. Perhaps part of the Perhaps part of the reason this reason this reason this incredibly unsuccessful incredibly unsuccessful incredibly unsuccessful approach continues is that approach continues is that no one has thought about the no one has thought about the next step. Nobody next step. Nobody next step. Nobody thought: thought: thought: okay, if we okay, if we okay, if we do this, what do this, what do this, what will our will our will our partners do? And partners partners do? And partners partners do? And partners do two things. do two things. First, they are trying to First, they are trying to First, they are trying to become as less become as less become as less dependent on dependent on dependent on America as possible. Break these America as possible. Break these America as possible. Break these ties as much ties as much ties as much as possible.

as possible. Especially in the Especially in the military sphere, but military sphere, but military sphere, but also in the economic sphere also in the economic sphere . And that's bad for . And that's bad for . And that's bad for America in America in America in material terms. material terms. material terms. You know, countries You know, countries You know, countries will think twice before will think twice before will think twice before buying another F-35 buying another F-35 buying another F-35 that the that the that the Pentagon controls. Why do you need a Pentagon controls. Why do you need a Pentagon controls. Why do you need a plane that is plane that is plane that is controlled by controlled by controlled by the Americans? the Americans? the Americans? Europe and Canada Europe and Canada Europe and Canada are obsessed with the idea of ​​having an are obsessed with the idea of ​​having an are obsessed with the idea of ​​having an alternative to Starlink. alternative to Starlink. alternative to Starlink. Like Ukraine. And that's quite Like Ukraine. And that's quite Like Ukraine. And that's quite right, isn't it? right, isn't it? right, isn't it? So, less So, less So, less dependence means dependence means dependence means American American American companies get companies get companies get less money. They have less money. They have less money. They have fewer customers. But at the same time, fewer customers. But at the same time, fewer customers. But at the same time, America is America is America is losing its losing its losing its leverage. And the part of leverage. And the part of leverage. And the part of all this that I all this that I all this that I find not just find not just find not just depressing, but terrifying, depressing, but terrifying, depressing, but terrifying, is that the is that the is that the biggest biggest biggest winner is China. winner is China. Because, like in that Because, like in that survey you survey you survey you cited at the beginning of cited at the beginning of cited at the beginning of our conversation, Ezra, our conversation, Ezra, our conversation, Ezra, we are now in a world where we are now in a world where we are now in a world where citizens of democracies citizens of democracies , countries that have been , countries that have been , countries that have been allies of the United States allies of the United States allies of the United States for generations, for generations, for generations, now see the now see the now see the United States as a United States as a United States as a greater threat than greater threat than greater threat than China. And this is China Xi.

China. And this is China Xi. This is a China that is more This is a China that is more authoritarian than it has been authoritarian than it has been authoritarian than it has been for decades. for decades. So I think a world where So I think a world where every country that isn't the every country that isn't the every country that isn't the United States United States United States or China is in the business of or China is in the business of or China is in the business of balancing between balancing between balancing between these two predatory these two predatory these two predatory hegemons is a really hegemons is a really hegemons is a really bad world. bad world. And just to add And just to add some data, the Democracy Perceptions Index some data, the Democracy Perceptions Index surveyed 98 surveyed 98 countries. The US was the countries. The US was the countries. The US was the fifth fifth fifth worst-perceived country. worst-perceived country. worst-perceived country. We were just ahead of We were just ahead of We were just ahead of Iran. Two positions Iran. Two positions Iran. Two positions behind Russia, China behind Russia, China behind Russia, China had a positive balance among these countries had a positive balance among these countries had a positive balance among these countries . . As for the question, even As for the question, even instrumentally, instrumentally, instrumentally, even in terms of the even in terms of the Trump administration's promises , is it working? , is it working? To the extent that the To the extent that the Trump administration Trump administration Trump administration has had a consistent has had a consistent has had a consistent theory of the matter, it has theory of the matter, it has theory of the matter, it has always been about always been about always been about American American American competition with China, competition with China, competition with China, American American American competition for power, competition for power, competition for power, for manufacturing for manufacturing for manufacturing capacity, for capacity, for capacity, for geopolitical influence, geopolitical influence, geopolitical influence, and to some extent for and to some extent for and to some extent for hearts and minds.

hearts and minds. Even now with Even now with technology and AI. technology and AI. technology and AI. and AI. Trump acted like a and AI. Trump acted like a and AI. Trump acted like a Manchurian agent. Manchurian agent. Manchurian agent. I mean, he I mean, he I mean, he put China in an put China in an put China in an incredibly strong incredibly strong incredibly strong position compared to position compared to position compared to where it was even a where it was even a where it was even a couple of years ago. And couple of years ago. And couple of years ago. And one of the ways one of the ways one of the ways he did this is by saying that what he did this is by saying that what countries want above all else countries want above all else from their counterparties from their counterparties is is is predictability and predictability and predictability and reliability. China has reliability. China has reliability. China has many problems. They are many problems. They are many problems. They are unreliable guys. unreliable guys. unreliable guys. Unreliable guy. Unreliable guy. Unreliable guy. But they are quite But they are quite But they are quite predictable and predictable and predictable and reliable. I don't...You reliable. I don't...You reliable. I don't...You know, you wouldn't know, you wouldn't know, you wouldn't say that's true say that's true say that's true about the deals that people about the deals that people about the deals that people make with them? make with them? So, look, I So, look, I completely agree with your completely agree with your completely agree with your observation that there has observation that there has observation that there has been no president who has been more been no president who has been more been no president who has been more helpful to helpful to helpful to China than Donald China than Donald China than Donald Trump. It's amazing, amazing Trump. It's amazing, amazing Trump. It's amazing, amazing how this helped China how this helped China . The Economist had a . The Economist had a . The Economist had a great cover.

great cover. great cover. She said: "Don't She said: "Don't She said: "Don't interrupt your interrupt your interrupt your enemy when he enemy when he enemy when he makes a mistake." And I makes a mistake." And I makes a mistake." And I think it's like think it's like think it's like the Chinese the Chinese the Chinese or something. Wasn't or something. Wasn't or something. Wasn't he looking at Trump he looking at Trump ? ? ? Yes, yes. And, you know, it's Yes, yes. And, you know, it's Yes, yes. And, you know, it's like, "shh-shh." And I think that's like, "shh-shh." And I think that's 100% correct 100% correct . The only thing I would . The only thing I would . The only thing I would argue with a little argue with a little argue with a little is what I would say: is what I would say: is what I would say: let's not let's not let's not give in to give in to give in to Chinese propaganda Chinese propaganda . So China's position . So China's position . So China's position is: okay, you is: okay, you is: okay, you may not like us, may not like us, may not like us, you may think it's you may think it's you may think it's bad that we bad that we bad that we oppress Uyghurs and oppress Uyghurs and oppress Uyghurs and Tibetans and Tibetans and Tibetans and crush freedoms in crush freedoms in crush freedoms in Hong Kong, but don't Hong Kong, but don't Hong Kong, but don't pay any attention to it pay any attention to it . Like, don't be . Like, don't be . Like, don't be such such such characterless characterless characterless liberals. You can liberals. You can liberals. You can trust us as an trust us as an trust us as an international international international player because we player because we player because we play by the rules, play by the rules, play by the rules, we are not a state we are not a state we are not a state seeking expansion or seeking expansion or seeking expansion or domination. We domination. We domination. We actually believe in a actually believe in a rules-based international order. So, you know, rules-based international order. So, you know, I can beat my wife and I can beat my wife and I can beat my wife and kids at home, but when kids at home, but when kids at home, but when I go out into the world, I'm a I go out into the world, I'm a reliable partner, and reliable partner, and this is critical in what this is critical in what this is critical in what China China China is saying now, a is saying now, a partner that partner that partner that supports the supports the rules-based international order and rules-based international order and multilateralism. And multilateralism. And multilateralism. And I don't think that's I don't think that's I don't think that's entirely true. And where, entirely true. And where, entirely true. And where, in my opinion, this is in my opinion, this is in my opinion, this is not true is, first not true is, first not true is, first of all, in trade.

of all, in trade. China has destroyed the China has destroyed the global global global trading system trading system trading system through deliberate through deliberate through deliberate overproduction overproduction overproduction and the deliberate and rather and the deliberate and rather and the deliberate and rather brutal creation of brutal creation of brutal creation of dominance in dominance in dominance in supply chains. supply chains. And this is one of the things that And this is one of the things that helped Trump helped Trump helped Trump get elected, not the only one, get elected, not the only one, get elected, not the only one, but one of them. And this is the but one of them. And this is the but one of them. And this is the area where I think area where I think area where I think he is right. And secondly he is right. And secondly , I think we should , I think we should , I think we should be careful about be careful about be careful about believing Chinese believing Chinese believing Chinese claims that claims that claims that they don't they don't they don't want to change us, want to change us, want to change us, that they that they that they just want the world to have just want the world to have rules-based multilateralism. China rules-based multilateralism. China clearly wants clearly wants clearly wants to change Taiwan. And to change Taiwan. And to change Taiwan. And China has passed a law China has passed a law China has passed a law that gives it that gives it that gives it extraterritorial extraterritorial extraterritorial powers, at powers, at powers, at its own discretion, over its own discretion, over its own discretion, over political forces political forces political forces outside China that outside China that outside China that China believes are acting China believes are acting China believes are acting against its ethnic against its ethnic against its ethnic unity. And, you know, the unity. And, you know, the unity. And, you know, the last thing I'd like to last thing I'd like to last thing I'd like to say is: China is say is: China is say is: China is behaving quite like behaving quite like behaving quite like Stephen Stephen Stephen Miller. The strong Miller. The strong Miller. The strong do what they want, do what they want, do what they want, and the weak suffer and the weak suffer and the weak suffer as they must in their as they must in their as they must in their foreign policy. The foreign policy. The foreign policy. The iron law of power.

iron law of power. iron law of power. Exactly, exactly like that. The only Exactly, exactly like that. The only Exactly, exactly like that. The only difference is that difference is that difference is that China does it China does it China does it efficiently. So, when efficiently. So, when efficiently. So, when Norway awarded the Norway awarded the Norway awarded the Nobel Prize to a Nobel Prize to a Nobel Prize to a Chinese Chinese Chinese writer — and this is not something that the writer — and this is not something that the Norwegian government controls — but China Norwegian government controls — but China punished Norway. punished Norway. China punished China punished Norway by Norway by Norway by banning banning banning salmon exports, and Norway salmon exports, and Norway salmon exports, and Norway had to had to had to humble itself and humble itself and humble itself and bow down to bow down to bow down to restore it. When restore it. When restore it. When Lithuania wanted to have Lithuania wanted to have Lithuania wanted to have relations with Taiwan, relations with Taiwan, relations with Taiwan, China imposed China imposed China imposed economic sanctions on it. economic sanctions on it. When Canada implemented When Canada implemented our our our extradition treaty with the extradition treaty with the extradition treaty with the United States United States United States and arrested and arrested Huawei’s CFO—albeit Huawei’s CFO—albeit under relatively under relatively under relatively comfortable house comfortable house comfortable house arrest in a $ arrest in a $ arrest in a $ 5 million Vancouver estate— 5 million Vancouver estate— two Canadians were illegally arrested and were illegally arrested and held in conditions that held in conditions that experts say experts say amounted to amounted to amounted to torture. So, China is torture. So, China is torture. So, China is very adept at imposing very adept at imposing very adept at imposing domination and domination and domination and vassalage on countries vassalage on countries vassalage on countries that it believes that it believes that it believes should obey.

should obey. Funny, I guess I Funny, I guess I disagree with you. I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree with you. I don't think we're saying think we're saying think we're saying anything different, but I anything different, but I anything different, but I realized what the realized what the realized what the difference was while you were difference was while you were difference was while you were saying it. I don't think a saying it. I don't think a rules-based international order is a rules-based international order is a concept that still concept that still concept that still matters. And so matters. And so matters. And so when when Maybe it Maybe it matters, but it doesn't matters, but it doesn't matters, but it doesn't exist. exist. exist. Yes. Uh, yeah, I...I Yes. Uh, yeah, I...I Yes. Uh, yeah, I...I understand. I understand. I understand. I understand linguistically what understand linguistically what you are hinting at. you are hinting at. you are hinting at. Yes, yes, no, no, as if... Yes, yes, no, no, as if... as if she could as if she could as if she could exist. Do you understand what exist. Do you understand what exist. Do you understand what I mean? It's not, um... I mean? It's not, um... But... but the point But... but the point I'm making is that I think I'm making is that I think a lot of the conversation is a lot of the conversation is stuck in stuck in stuck in nostalgia for things nostalgia for things nostalgia for things that may that may that may not have existed for a long time and not have existed for a long time and not have existed for a long time and certainly don't exist certainly don't exist certainly don't exist now. And what now. And what now. And what China is pointing out—when I China is pointing out—when I China is pointing out—when I say China is say China is say China is reliable, I don't reliable, I don't reliable, I don't mean that they are mean that they are mean that they are reliable as a reliable as a reliable as a multilateral multilateral multilateral partner that partner that partner that supports a supports a supports a fair and fair and fair and neutral neutral rules-based order. They are rules-based order. They are obviously not reliable obviously not reliable obviously not reliable in this. in this. in this. But that's exactly how they But that's exactly how they But that's exactly how they position themselves. position themselves. position themselves. That's how they That's how they That's how they position themselves. I think position themselves. I think they are, generally they are, generally they are, generally speaking, a speaking, a speaking, a predictable predictable predictable counterparty in what are counterparty in what are counterparty in what are often very often very often very unequal unequal unequal relationships, whereas relationships, whereas relationships, whereas Trump is an Trump is an Trump is an unpredictable counterparty.

unpredictable counterparty. predatory hegemon. predatory hegemon. You...So if you're You...So if you're You...So if you're Taiwan, you know Taiwan, you know Taiwan, you know what China wants from what China wants from what China wants from you. And just...I you. And just...I you. And just...I mean, if you're mean, if you're mean, if you're Norway, you know Norway, you know Norway, you know what China wants from what China wants from what China wants from you. You know what you. You know what you. You know what their “red their “red their “red lines” will be, right? That's a bad lines” will be, right? That's a bad lines” will be, right? That's a bad system to system to system to move towards, isn't move towards, isn't move towards, isn't it? This system is a it? This system is a it? This system is a regression to older regression to older regression to older forms of geopolitics that forms of geopolitics that forms of geopolitics that we overcame at the cost of we overcame at the cost of we overcame at the cost of much blood. But that's the much blood. But that's the much blood. But that's the , um... , um... tragedy. tragedy. tragedy. Yes, I completely agree. Yes, I completely agree. Yes, I completely agree. And I think another And I think another And I think another way to say it is: way to say it is: way to say it is: China is what an China is what an effective effective Trump administration would aspire to become Trump administration would aspire to become . . . This is interesting. This is interesting. This is interesting. Yes? A predatory Yes? A predatory Yes? A predatory hegemon, but one that hegemon, but one that handles it well. And I would handles it well. And I would add that it does a good job of add that it does a good job of add that it does a good job of dealing with dealing with dealing with mercantilism. mercantilism. Mhm. Mhm. And that does a good job of And that does a good job of running a running a rent-seeking rent-seeking rent-seeking kleptocratic kleptocratic kleptocratic state. Um, so yeah. state. Um, so yeah. state. Um, so yeah. China...I...I agree with China...I...I agree with China...I...I agree with you. China is good at you. China is good at you. China is good at being a being a superpower with a superpower with a completely immoral completely immoral , self-serving elite , self-serving elite , self-serving elite at its helm, in the style of the 19th at its helm, in the style of the 19th at its helm, in the style of the 19th century. And if, you century. And if, you century. And if, you know, completely know, completely know, completely dystopian...

dystopian... dystopian... I don't even think it's I don't even think it's I don't even think it's necessary to say " necessary to say " completely immoral completely immoral ." They... Some of the things ." They... Some of the things ." They... Some of the things they do are they do are they do are immoral, some are immoral, some are immoral, some... But immoral, some... But immoral, some... But they are extremely they are extremely they are extremely pragmatic in pragmatic in pragmatic in their pursuit of their own their pursuit of their own their pursuit of their own power. That's why I power. That's why I power. That's why I think we're think we're think we're right when we say: in right when we say: in right when we say: in a sense, they are what a sense, they are what Trump only Trump only Trump only promises to be. promises to be. promises to be. But I think there is also But I think there is also But I think there is also some real some real some real immorality here. Well, it's immorality here. Well, it's immorality here. Well, it's like the difference between like the difference between like the difference between exploiting exploiting exploiting workers for workers for workers for money and exterminating money and exterminating money and exterminating Uyghurs and Tibetans Uyghurs and Tibetans Uyghurs and Tibetans because you believe there should be because you believe there should be because you believe there should be only one only one only one Han people. Do you understand what Han people. Do you understand what I mean? Well, that is, the I mean? Well, that is, the I mean? Well, that is, the very goal. very goal. very goal. Yes, I don't want to Yes, I don't want to Yes, I don't want to defend defend defend China's attitude towards the China's attitude towards the China's attitude towards the Uyghurs here. Uyghurs here. Uyghurs here. Yes, yes, yes. But what I'm Yes, yes, yes. But what I'm Yes, yes, yes. But what I'm saying is... I saying is... I saying is... I know it's not true, but know it's not true, but know it's not true, but abuse... I guess what abuse... I guess what abuse... I guess what I'm trying to say is what I think I'm trying to say is what I think I'm trying to say is what I think is an is an is an important distinction important distinction : it's not just a : it's not just a : it's not just a ruthless pursuit of ruthless pursuit of ruthless pursuit of economic economic economic efficiency. There are efficiency. There are efficiency. There are certain political and certain political and certain political and social social social And I think this is not a And I think this is not a And I think this is not a new thing. A long-held belief, new thing. A long-held belief, new thing. A long-held belief, especially in large especially in large especially in large regimes, is that regimes, is that regimes, is that power power power comes from comes from comes from enforced enforced enforced social social social solidarity, which solidarity, which solidarity, which can often mean the can often mean the can often mean the erasure of erasure of erasure of differences.

differences. differences. Yes, that's right. A Yes, that's right. A Yes, that's right. A terrible thing. Isn't that right terrible thing. Isn't that right ? I don't want to live in a ? I don't want to live in a ? I don't want to live in a world where world where world where China rules. I don't want to live China rules. I don't want to live China rules. I don't want to live under Chinese under Chinese under Chinese rule. This world rule. This world rule. This world where you find yourself between where you find yourself between where you find yourself between China and America is a China and America is a difficult world for difficult world for difficult world for anyone who is not China anyone who is not China anyone who is not China or America, and or America, and or America, and perhaps a difficult perhaps a difficult perhaps a difficult world even for world even for world even for America itself. America itself. I agree 100%. And the only I agree 100%. And the only condition I would add condition I would add condition I would add is that in this is that in this is that in this world you find yourself world you find yourself world you find yourself between China and between China and between China and predatory America, predatory America, predatory America, right? America, right? America, right? America, Trump's Trump's Trump's America. This is a terrible America. This is a terrible America. This is a terrible world. I think in world. I think in world. I think in such a world, America such a world, America such a world, America becomes less wealthy. becomes less wealthy. It is showing worse It is showing worse economic economic economic results, and I results, and I results, and I believe that America is believe that America is believe that America is becoming less free. becoming less free. You know, the danger for You know, the danger for America is that America is that America is that it is changing. Although it is changing. Although , in general, I don't want to , in general, I don't want to , in general, I don't want to romanticize romanticize romanticize America before Trump.

America before Trump. But, in general, from a rules-based market economy to a rules-based market economy to a kleptocracy, where kleptocracy, where kleptocracy, where rent-seeking rent-seeking rent-seeking behavior is the way of behavior is the way of behavior is the way of doing business. And doing business. And doing business. And history is full of history is full of history is full of examples of how a examples of how a examples of how a shift to shift to shift to rent-seeking rent-seeking rent-seeking can be beneficial can be beneficial can be beneficial for individual for individual for individual rent-seekers, but it is always rent-seekers, but it is always rent-seekers, but it is always disastrous for the disastrous for the disastrous for the country as a whole. So country as a whole. So country as a whole. So I think this is a I think this is a I think this is a bad option for bad option for bad option for America and a really America and a really America and a really bad option for the bad option for the bad option for the world's democracies. Let me world's democracies. Let me give you an example of the give you an example of the benefits of a benefits of a benefits of a friendly friendly friendly America that I America that I America that I encountered just this encountered just this encountered just this week. I was talking to a week. I was talking to a week. I was talking to a Brazilian about the Brazilian about the Brazilian about the Brazilian elections. Brazilian elections. This is a progressive This is a progressive person, someone who is person, someone who is person, someone who is very strongly very strongly very strongly against Bolsonaro. And this against Bolsonaro. And this against Bolsonaro. And this person said: person said: person said: you know, the problem is that you know, the problem is that you know, the problem is that even if a even if a even if a miracle happens and miracle happens and miracle happens and Bolsonaro doesn't Bolsonaro doesn't Bolsonaro doesn't win. And by the way, win. And by the way, win. And by the way, this person predicts this person predicts this person predicts that Bolsonaro that Bolsonaro that Bolsonaro will win honestly and will win honestly and will win honestly and fairly. But this fairly. But this fairly. But this person said: person said: person said: even if even if even if a miracle happens and a miracle happens and a miracle happens and Bolsonaro does not Bolsonaro does not Bolsonaro does not win, there is a win, there is a win, there is a real risk that the real risk that the real risk that the votes will be counted votes will be counted votes will be counted unfairly. And then this unfairly. And then this unfairly. And then this person said that person said that person said that things would be different under a things would be different under a things would be different under a different different different US administration. Because in the past, the US administration. Because in the past, the US administration. Because in the past, the US administration US administration US administration was what was what was what helped helped helped guarantee a fair guarantee a fair guarantee a fair vote count. And

vote count. And vote count. And now we do now we do now we do n't have that. And I think that kind of n't have that. And I think that kind of n't have that. And I think that kind of influence on influence on influence on the periphery is something that the the periphery is something that the the periphery is something that the world's democracies will world's democracies will world's democracies will really lose. And really lose. And really lose. And again, this is one again, this is one again, this is one of the reasons I of the reasons I of the reasons I wrote my book, and wrote my book, and wrote my book, and one of my main one of my main one of my main conclusions: the battlefield conclusions: the battlefield conclusions: the battlefield for liberal for liberal for liberal democracy in the world democracy in the world is America. And if is America. And if is America. And if liberal liberal liberal democracy loses democracy loses democracy loses here, it will have a here, it will have a here, it will have a very hard time in the rest of the very hard time in the rest of the very hard time in the rest of the world. world. During the first During the first term, if term, if term, if you look at you look at you look at people like Jeff Bezos people like Jeff Bezos people like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, well, or Mark Zuckerberg, well, or Mark Zuckerberg, well, a lot of people at the a lot of people at the a lot of people at the top of the economy. You top of the economy. You top of the economy. You know, they were know, they were know, they were very against what very against what very against what Trump seemed to Trump seemed to Trump seemed to mean for doing mean for doing mean for doing business in America, business in America, business in America, right? They didn't right? They didn't right? They didn't like what it like what it like what it meant for meant for meant for democracy, for democracy, for democracy, for openness to openness to openness to immigrants, for immigrants, for immigrants, for our values, but our values, but our values, but they also didn't they also didn't they also didn't like the idea of ​​a like the idea of ​​a "pay-to- "pay-to- play" transactional system. And, you know, play" transactional system. And, you know, play" transactional system. And, you know, they weren't part of they weren't part of they weren't part of his coalition.

his coalition. his coalition. During his second term, During his second term, During his second term, many of them, to varying many of them, to varying many of them, to varying degrees, joined degrees, joined degrees, joined him, all the way up to Elon him, all the way up to Elon him, all the way up to Elon Musk, who just Musk, who just Musk, who just put up $250 million put up $250 million put up $250 million or something or something or something to save to save to save the Republicans in the the Republicans in the the Republicans in the midterm elections. And midterm elections. And midterm elections. And this has a certain parallel this has a certain parallel this has a certain parallel in your book from in your book from in your book from your time in your time in your time in Moscow after the collapse of the Moscow after the collapse of the Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Soviet Union, Soviet Union, when you watched the when you watched the when you watched the oligarchs oligarchs oligarchs seize power. So seize power. So seize power. So I'm curious what that I'm curious what that I'm curious what that looked like for you, how looked like for you, how looked like for you, how that played out, because that played out, because that played out, because in the rest of the world, it was in the rest of the world, it was in the rest of the world, it was American business American business leaders who were very leaders who were very leaders who were very adamant about dissuading adamant about dissuading adamant about dissuading Trump from tariffs. Trump from tariffs. Trump from tariffs. But I don't think But I don't think But I don't think they were as they were as they were as determined as they were during their determined as they were during their determined as they were during their first term. first term. Yes, I completely Yes, I completely agree with you, Ezra, and agree with you, Ezra, and agree with you, Ezra, and it actually it actually it actually scares me a lot because of what scares me a lot because of what scares me a lot because of what I saw in Russia. I, I saw in Russia. I, I saw in Russia. I, I, I don't want to I, I don't want to I, I don't want to exaggerate, exaggerate, exaggerate, of course. Russia, you know, of course. Russia, you know, of course. Russia, you know, tried to become a tried to become a tried to become a democracy in the 90s, but democracy in the 90s, but democracy in the 90s, but never never never fully achieved it. fully achieved it. America is perhaps the America is perhaps the strongest strongest strongest democracy in the world. democracy in the world.

Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. And Perhaps. Perhaps. And Perhaps. Perhaps. And Russia has never Russia has never truly truly truly built a freely built a freely built a freely functioning market functioning market functioning market economy. So there are economy. So there are economy. So there are many, many differences many, many differences many, many differences . But there are also . But there are also . But there are also parallels. And, you know, what parallels. And, you know, what parallels. And, you know, what I saw in Russia I saw in Russia I saw in Russia in the 90s is that the people in the 90s is that the people in the 90s is that the people who became oligarchs who became oligarchs who became oligarchs were, by and large, were, by and large, were, by and large, really smart really smart really smart guys, guys, guys, innovative, innovative, innovative, entrepreneurial, well, with entrepreneurial, well, with entrepreneurial, well, with degrees degrees degrees in math and in math and in math and physics. In a different physics. In a different physics. In a different environment, they environment, they environment, they could have become could have become could have become founders of founders of founders of companies in companies in companies in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley. But they were But they were But they were smart enough smart enough smart enough to understand: the to understand: the to understand: the best way best way best way to become fabulously to become fabulously to become fabulously rich is rich is rich is to get the government to to get the government to to get the government to give you an oil give you an oil give you an oil company. This is a way company. This is a way company. This is a way to get rich very to get rich very to get rich very quickly. But then, quickly. But then, quickly. But then, realizing this, they realizing this, they realizing this, they decided that they could decided that they could decided that they could control the state control the state . And it all started with . And it all started with . And it all started with Yeltsin. But when Yeltsin. But when Yeltsin. But when Yeltsin began to Yeltsin began to Yeltsin began to lose influence, they lose influence, they lose influence, they needed to needed to needed to put put put someone else in his place.

someone else in his place. And it was the oligarchs, or And it was the oligarchs, or at least one of them at least one of them , who brought Putin to , who brought Putin to , who brought Putin to power. The calculation was power. The calculation was power. The calculation was this: he would be " this: he would be " our guy," and our guy," and our guy," and in the end we would in the end we would in the end we would manipulate him. We are manipulate him. We are manipulate him. We are much smarter much smarter much smarter than this guy. He's than this guy. He's than this guy. He's like a primitive like a primitive like a primitive KGB agent. And we are KGB agent. And we are brilliant businessmen and brilliant businessmen and entrepreneurs. But, entrepreneurs. But, entrepreneurs. But, of course, the last word was of course, the last word was of course, the last word was his. And his. And his. And once he was firmly once he was firmly once he was firmly entrenched in power, entrenched in power, entrenched in power, he showed them who was in he showed them who was in he showed them who was in charge—and it charge—and it charge—and it was him. This should be a was him. This should be a was him. This should be a cautionary tale cautionary tale cautionary tale for American for American for American plutocrats. And I plutocrats. And I plutocrats. And I think they should think they should think they should be very careful be very careful be very careful about thinking that they about thinking that they about thinking that they can control can control can control President Trump. Do President Trump. Do President Trump. Do you think they you think they you think they think they can think they can think they can control him? I do control him? I do control him? I do n't really think n't really think n't really think they believe it. they believe it. they believe it. Elon Musk? I Elon Musk? I Elon Musk? I don't think he don't think he don't think he thinks he can thinks he can thinks he can control it. control it. control it. Really? Really? Really? Yes. Do Yes. Do Yes. Do you think he you think he you think he ever thought that? I do ever thought that? I do ever thought that? I do n't know. Trump is not from the n't know. Trump is not from the n't know. Trump is not from the same environment as same environment as same environment as Putin. Isn't that right?

Putin. Isn't that right? Putin. Isn't that right? Trump was already Trump was already Trump was already president when president when president when they started, had already they started, had already they started, had already served one term served one term served one term when they started when they started when they started moving towards him. moving towards him. moving towards him. Trump became, especially Trump became, especially Trump became, especially after the after the after the assassination attempt, when Musk assassination attempt, when Musk assassination attempt, when Musk supported him, a kind of supported him, a kind of supported him, a kind of force in history, a force in history, a force in history, a great historical great historical great historical figure; these same figure; these same figure; these same people were very people were very people were very angry with the angry with the Biden administration. She Biden administration. She ignored them, ignored them, ignored them, taxed them, taxed them, taxed them, regulated them regulated them regulated them , , , investigated them investigated them investigated them , , , spoke spoke spoke ill of them, ill of them, ill of them, restricted them—she restricted them—she restricted them—she did everything they did everything they did everything they did. did. did. It took It took It took antitrust antitrust antitrust measures against them. measures against them. measures against them. Antitrust Antitrust Antitrust measures. Although in some measures. Although in some measures. Although in some cases, in fact, cases, in fact, cases, in fact, for many of them for many of them for many of them it wasn't, but we it wasn't, but we it wasn't, but we can put that can put that can put that aside. Their level of aside. Their level of aside. Their level of rage often seemed to rage often seemed to rage often seemed to me completely me completely me completely out of proportion to the out of proportion to the out of proportion to the taxes or taxes or taxes or regulations they regulations they regulations they had to pay. had to pay. had to pay. It's not like Biden It's not like Biden It's not like Biden actually broke actually broke actually broke Facebook or anything like that. Facebook or anything like that. Facebook or anything like that. Whatever. I think Whatever. I think Whatever. I think they saw Trump they saw Trump they saw Trump not as someone to not as someone to not as someone to control, but as control, but as control, but as someone to do someone to do someone to do business with. I think they business with. I think they business with. I think they know they don't know they don't know they don't control him. But control him. But control him. But especially now that especially now that especially now that he won, they he won, they he won, they accept the system for what accept the system for what accept the system for what it is. And it is. And it is. And therein lies the real therein lies the real therein lies the real danger of a system danger of a system danger of a system that is mutating into what that is mutating into what that is mutating into what our our our political system is turning into. And political system is turning into. And political system is turning into. And tariffs are part of tariffs are part of tariffs are part of that. Tariffs, among that. Tariffs, among that. Tariffs, among other things, are a other things, are a other things, are a tool of tool of tool of corruption. This is what corruption. This is what corruption. This is what is really the way to is really the way to is really the way to prosper and prosper and prosper and gain power in this gain power in this gain power in this system. That in a world system. That in a world system. That in a world where the Trump administration where the Trump administration will go after will go after its enemies and its enemies and its enemies and make favorable

make favorable make favorable decisions on mergers decisions on mergers decisions on mergers and other matters for and other matters for and other matters for its friends, many its friends, many its friends, many of them, I think, are of them, I think, are of them, I think, are convincing themselves that this is how convincing themselves that this is how business is done. They are not business is done. They are not doing anything doing anything doing anything wrong. As it is, so it is. wrong. As it is, so it is. wrong. As it is, so it is. What is this becoming... Some of What is this becoming... Some of What is this becoming... Some of them are true believers. them are true believers. them are true believers. Musk advocates a very Musk advocates a very Musk advocates a very extreme form of extreme form of extreme form of politics. I don't think they are politics. I don't think they are politics. I don't think they are all sincere all sincere all sincere supporters. But what is supporters. But what is supporters. But what is very frightening about the very frightening about the level of capitulation that we have seen, and level of capitulation that we have seen, and the the the kleptocratic kleptocratic kleptocratic structure that I structure that I structure that I believe Trump believe Trump believe Trump is trying to build, is trying to build, is trying to build, both explicitly and both explicitly and both explicitly and intuitively, is that there intuitively, is that there intuitively, is that there is a is a is a competing logic competing logic competing logic for further for further for further capitulation. Isn't that right capitulation. Isn't that right capitulation. Isn't that right ? If you... ? If you... ? If you... This... this is the opposite of the This... this is the opposite of the This... this is the opposite of the virtuous cycle of virtuous cycle of virtuous cycle of collective action. This is collective action. This is collective action. This is the opposite. the opposite. the opposite. and Dario Amodei and Dario Amodei and Dario Amodei Yes. Yes. Yes. you're trying you're trying you're trying to limit what, to limit what, to limit what, you know, your system you know, your system you know, your system will do through will do through will do through the Pentagon, and suddenly the Pentagon, and suddenly the Pentagon, and suddenly you can be declared a you can be declared a supply chain risk and supply chain risk and barred from barred from barred from all government all government all government contracts. Isn't that right? contracts. Isn't that right? contracts. Isn't that right? Conversely, you are one of the Conversely, you are one of the Conversely, you are one of the other companies, and other companies, and other companies, and you say, "We will do what you say, "We will do what you say, "We will do what you want, Mr.

you want, Mr. you want, Mr. President." and President." and President." and get all the get all the get all the contracts. This changes the contracts. This changes the contracts. This changes the entire entire entire incentive structure in a way incentive structure in a way incentive structure in a way that creates a kind of that creates a kind of that creates a kind of feedback loop feedback loop feedback loop between power between power between power and surrender. and surrender. But I also think that But I also think that this is what happened, and this is what happened, and this is what happened, and perhaps this was perhaps this was perhaps this was the first thing: the reason the first thing: the reason the first thing: the reason you saw you saw you saw some big some big some big business interests business interests business interests supporting Trump for supporting Trump for supporting Trump for his reelection is his reelection is his reelection is a feeling, or a feeling, or a feeling, or maybe "feeling" is maybe "feeling" is too weak a word, too weak a word, too weak a word, is an observation that there is a is an observation that there is a is an observation that there is a growing growing growing populist anger in America. populist anger in America. That there were many people That there were many people who felt who felt who felt abandoned. And the worry is abandoned. And the worry is that this anger could that this anger could that this anger could be quite bad be quite bad be quite bad for the 0.1%. And from that for the 0.1%. And from that for the 0.1%. And from that comes the view: comes the view: comes the view: okay, here's a guy okay, here's a guy okay, here's a guy who can who can who can harness that anger. harness that anger. Here's a guy who Here's a guy who could be a hero to could be a hero to could be a hero to people who are truly people who are truly people who are truly unhappy with the way unhappy with the way unhappy with the way things are going right now. And the things are going right now. And the things are going right now. And the good news is that good news is that good news is that he will not be a he will not be a monopoly breaker. He monopoly breaker. He will not break up our will not break up our will not break up our companies. He will not companies. He will not companies. He will not raise our raise our raise our taxes. He will find taxes. He will find taxes. He will find another direction to another direction to another direction to channel that anger.

channel that anger. Here is the only correction Here is the only correction I would make to I would make to I would make to this. I don't think what the this. I don't think what the this. I don't think what the business magnates in question were afraid business magnates in question were afraid of of of was populism was populism was populism in the country. I don't think in the country. I don't think in the country. I don't think they were worried about the they were worried about the they were worried about the laid-off steelworkers laid-off steelworkers laid-off steelworkers in Ohio. I don't think it was that kind of in Ohio. I don't think it was that kind of in Ohio. I don't think it was that kind of anger or anger or anger or power they were afraid of. I power they were afraid of. I power they were afraid of. I have talked to have talked to have talked to many of these people. many of these people. many of these people. I heard many of I heard many of I heard many of them talking to each them talking to each them talking to each other. One of the great other. One of the great other. One of the great things about the podcast economy is that things about the podcast economy is that you can listen to you can listen to billionaires billionaires billionaires talking to each talking to each talking to each other and see them other and see them other and see them interacting on Twitter and interacting on Twitter and interacting on Twitter and other places. X. And what other places. X. And what other places. X. And what they hated, they hated, they hated, for example, in for example, in for example, in Silicon Valley, Silicon Valley, was the way the New York was the way the New York was the way the New York Times covered Times covered Times covered technology. They technology. They technology. They hated it when their hated it when their hated it when their employees employees employees organized on organized on organized on Slack, demanding that they Slack, demanding that they Slack, demanding that they post statements in post statements in post statements in support of Black Lives Matter. support of Black Lives Matter. Not to mention Not to mention unions or, you know, unions or, you know, other, more other, more business-threatening things. And when I business-threatening things. And when I think about what they think about what they think about what they were trying were trying were trying to curb—and many to curb—and many to curb—and many of them were of them were of them were quite open about it.

quite open about it. You know, Marc You know, Marc Andreessen talked Andreessen talked Andreessen talked about this: when he about this: when he about this: when he interviewed my interviewed my interviewed my former colleague former colleague former colleague Ross Doutet, what Ross Doutet, what Ross Doutet, what they were trying they were trying they were trying to curb, what they were trying to stop, to curb, what they were trying to stop, was the attempts by the was the attempts by the rest of rest of rest of society with society with society with real centers of real centers of real centers of influence to not just influence to not just influence to not just regulate them or regulate them or regulate them or tax them, but tax them, but tax them, but to reduce their to reduce their to reduce their social status. social status. To say that what To say that what they did was they did was they did was bad, that needs to bad, that needs to bad, that needs to change, and that they change, and that they change, and that they shouldn't have the shouldn't have the shouldn't have the influence or power that they influence or power that they influence or power that they have now. But I don't have now. But I don't have now. But I don't think they were concerned with think they were concerned with think they were concerned with populism in the populism in the populism in the conventional conventional conventional sense. I think they were sense. I think they were sense. I think they were concerned about concerned about concerned about progressivism progressivism progressivism coming from other coming from other coming from other centers of influence in centers of influence in centers of influence in society. society. I agree to some extent , but with a bunch of , but with a bunch of , but with a bunch of additions. So, additions. So, additions. So, I think there are two parts to what you I think there are two parts to what you I think there are two parts to what you might might might call the hurt call the hurt call the hurt feelings feelings feelings of the super-rich. I think of the super-rich. I think of the super-rich. I think one part is exactly what one part is exactly what one part is exactly what you're talking about you're talking about . It's not so much a . It's not so much a . It's not so much a status anxiety status anxiety status anxiety as a question: what is as a question: what is as a question: what is your social your social your social position? Are you the position? Are you the position? Are you the main character in main character in main character in this society?

this society? this society? Do you deserve Do you deserve Do you deserve praise and approval? praise and approval? praise and approval? Of course. Of course. Of course. Should flowers be thrown Should flowers be thrown Should flowers be thrown at your feet for what at your feet for what at your feet for what you have done? you have done? you have done? Are you heroes? Because, Are you heroes? Because, Are you heroes? Because, you know, certainly, you know, certainly, you know, certainly, during the Reagan era, during the Reagan era, during the Reagan era, then Clinton, then then Clinton, then then Clinton, then dot-coms and dot-coms and dot-coms and techno-optimism, there was techno-optimism, there was techno-optimism, there was this moment: "Hooray, this moment: "Hooray, this moment: "Hooray, entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, inventors, you are heroes inventors, you are heroes ." And I think it's quite ." And I think it's quite ." And I think it's quite understandable that everyone understandable that everyone understandable that everyone wants to be considered wants to be considered wants to be considered worthy in their worthy in their worthy in their society. Therefore, there is a society. Therefore, there is a society. Therefore, there is a certain dissatisfaction certain dissatisfaction certain dissatisfaction with the fact that you are with the fact that you are with the fact that you are not considered as such. not considered as such. But I wouldn't But I wouldn't underestimate, Ezra, the underestimate, Ezra, the underestimate, Ezra, the power of material power of material power of material interest. And the anxiety is in interest. And the anxiety is in interest. And the anxiety is in being being being sure that, sure that, sure that, for example, a New for example, a New for example, a New York Times columnist might write York Times columnist might write York Times columnist might write something bad about me. something bad about me. But where it gets But where it gets really offensive, really offensive, really offensive, enough for a enough for a enough for a political political political organization, is when organization, is when organization, is when all these angry all these angry all these angry columns eventually columns eventually columns eventually lead to lead to lead to the election of Bernie the election of Bernie the election of Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Sanders or Elizabeth Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, who Warren, who Warren, who are going to are going to are going to tax us, tax us, tax us, regulate us, and regulate us, and regulate us, and break up our break up our break up our company.

company. to the to the Biden administration, where there's Lina Khan, Biden administration, where there's Lina Khan, Biden administration, where there's Lina Khan, right, who's doing this, right, who's doing this, right, who's doing this, who's actually who's actually who's actually trying to trying to trying to tax them. tax them. tax them. Yes, it's not just Yes, it's not just Yes, it's not just hurt feelings, it's hurt feelings, it's hurt feelings, it's partially hurt partially hurt partially hurt feelings, but it's also feelings, but it's also feelings, but it's also my economic my economic my economic interests that will interests that will interests that will suffer. And I'm suffer. And I'm suffer. And I'm going to going to going to offer you a offer you a thesis or a possibility thesis or a possibility that the situation may be that the situation may be that the situation may be changing. Um, I changing. Um, I changing. Um, I just wrote an article just wrote an article just wrote an article for the FT where I make this for the FT where I make this for the FT where I make this argument that I argument that I argument that I think we're reaching a think we're reaching a think we're reaching a tipping point tipping point tipping point and you're going to see and you're going to see and you're going to see a lot less a lot less a lot less capitulation because capitulation because capitulation because I think there are a lot of I think there are a lot of I think there are a lot of people who decided people who decided people who decided that appeasement that appeasement that appeasement was the right was the right was the right move, and I think a move, and I think a move, and I think a lot of them are lot of them are lot of them are now deciding, first of all now deciding, first of all , that it , that it , that it actually just actually just actually just encouraged the president encouraged the president encouraged the president to be even more to be even more to be even more unbalanced. And unbalanced. And secondly, I think they secondly, I think they secondly, I think they think that maybe think that maybe think that maybe he will lose. And if he will lose. And if he will lose. And if things really things really things really change, I would say that change, I would say that change, I would say that the moment when it the moment when it the moment when it started to change started to change started to change was the Wall Street was the Wall Street was the Wall Street Journal article that Jamie Journal article that Jamie Journal article that Jamie Dimon published on Dimon published on Dimon published on September 28th. So, just a September 28th. So, just a September 28th. So, just a few weeks ago. I do few weeks ago. I do few weeks ago. I do n't know if you saw n't know if you saw n't know if you saw this, where he called for a this, where he called for a this, where he called for a massive massive massive trade and trade and trade and economic agreement economic agreement economic agreement between the US and the EU. Um, and between the US and the EU. Um, and between the US and the EU. Um, and he even described it he even described it he even described it as a big beautiful

as a big beautiful as a big beautiful deal and said it was what deal and said it was what America should do. I think this is America should do. I think this is very important very important very important because the article because the article because the article Jamie wrote does not Jamie wrote does not Jamie wrote does not contain direct contain direct contain direct criticism of the criticism of the criticism of the Trump administration Trump administration , but its actual , but its actual , but its actual content is 180 degrees content is 180 degrees content is 180 degrees different from different from different from the policies the policies the policies pursued by the pursued by the pursued by the Trump administration Trump administration . And there is also, I think, a . And there is also, I think, a . And there is also, I think, a really large group of really large group of really large group of business leaders business leaders business leaders who actually who actually who actually think that global think that global think that global trade, especially with trade, especially with trade, especially with partners who partners who partners who share values, is a share values, is a share values, is a good idea; who good idea; who good idea; who believe in the believe in the believe in the transatlantic transatlantic transatlantic alliance; who believe alliance; who believe alliance; who believe that Ukraine should that Ukraine should that Ukraine should win the war with win the war with win the war with Russia; who think it's Russia; who think it's Russia; who think it's crazy to wage a crazy to wage a crazy to wage a trade war with trade war with trade war with Canada. I think there are Canada. I think there are Canada. I think there are many business many business leaders who think the same way leaders who think the same way leaders who think the same way . Of course, I . Of course, I . Of course, I communicate with many communicate with many communicate with many of them. Well, I'm Canadian and I of them. Well, I'm Canadian and I of them. Well, I'm Canadian and I also support also support also support Ukraine, so Ukraine, so Ukraine, so maybe I know maybe I know maybe I know more people like that.

more people like that. But, you know, I But, you know, I talk to a lot of talk to a lot of talk to a lot of these people, many these people, many these people, many of whom actually of whom actually of whom actually donated money to the donated money to the Trump campaign, who are Trump campaign, who are now deeply now deeply now deeply disappointed and even disappointed and even disappointed and even a little scared by what's a little scared by what's a little scared by what's happening. They are happening. They are happening. They are scared of war in scared of war in scared of war in Iran. They are scared that Iran. They are scared that Iran. They are scared that Trump is actually siding with Trump is actually siding with Trump is actually siding with Putin, not Putin, not Putin, not Ukraine. They are scared of Ukraine. They are scared of Ukraine. They are scared of trade wars that trade wars that trade wars that look like a look like a look like a struggle for struggle for struggle for dominance that dominance that dominance that Americans do not want. Americans do not want. Americans Americans don't really want Canada to don't really want Canada to don't really want Canada to become the 51st state. They become the 51st state. They become the 51st state. They don't want to suppress don't want to suppress don't want to suppress Canada and force it Canada and force it Canada and force it into submission. into submission. into submission. Or your enemy. Or your enemy. So, I think everything So, I think everything will depend on the will depend on the will depend on the midterm elections, because midterm elections, because midterm elections, because we see that we see that we see that American business American business American business will always be on the side of the will always be on the side of the will always be on the side of the government. But I think government. But I think government. But I think if they see if they see if they see that President Trump and that President Trump and that President Trump and MAGA are no longer MAGA are no longer MAGA are no longer delivering delivering delivering results in results in results in the election, you might the election, you might the election, you might see a very different see a very different see a very different behavior.

behavior. behavior. I think that might be I think that might be I think that might be true. I mean, true. I mean, true. I mean, there's this concept of " there's this concept of " preference cascades" preference cascades" —these are situations where —these are situations where —these are situations where many people have many people have many people have views that they don't yet views that they don't yet views that they don't yet dare to voice dare to voice . And then something . And then something . And then something changes. And everything changes. And everything changes. And everything bursts out bursts out bursts out because the pressure was because the pressure was because the pressure was building up behind the building up behind the building up behind the wall. So many wall. So many wall. So many argue that there argue that there argue that there was a cascade of was a cascade of was a cascade of preferences in favor of preferences in favor of preferences in favor of Trump in 2024. That many Trump in 2024. That many Trump in 2024. That many in American in American in American business circles and among the business circles and among the business circles and among the cultural elite have cultural elite have cultural elite have actually turned actually turned actually turned at least against the at least against the at least against the Democrats, right? Democrats, right? They hated " vocism," they hated vocism," they hated vocism," they hated Joe Biden, they hated Lina Han, Joe Biden, they hated Lina Han, Joe Biden, they hated Lina Han, they hated this whole they hated this whole they hated this whole situation. But situation. But situation. But supporting Trump was supporting Trump was supporting Trump was culturally considered culturally considered culturally considered shameful. shameful. shameful. Maybe you would Maybe you would Maybe you would n't be n't be n't be invited to invited to invited to social events anymore. social events anymore. social events anymore. Well, you might be Well, you might be Well, you might be invited, but people invited, but people invited, but people will think that... will think that... will think that... They'll think you're a They'll think you're a They'll think you're a scumbag. scumbag. scumbag. Or yes, yes. Or yes, yes. Or yes, yes. So people So people So people held back, and when held back, and when held back, and when Musk expressed Musk expressed Musk expressed support, and Andreessen followed suit support, and Andreessen followed suit support, and Andreessen followed suit , all these , all these , all these people who people who people who were actually covertly were actually covertly were actually covertly pro-Trump pro-Trump pro-Trump started to act. It seemed like a started to act. It seemed like a started to act. It seemed like a rapid movement rapid movement rapid movement in that direction. And in the in that direction. And in the in that direction. And in the Trump era, there is a Trump era, there is a Trump era, there is a real penalty for falling out of real penalty for falling out of favor with him.

Many people at Many people at different levels of different levels of different levels of society, society, society, especially in business especially in business especially in business circles, really circles, really circles, really can't stand it. can't stand it. can't stand it. They have the same They have the same They have the same views as during the views as during the views as during the first term, they first term, they first term, they consider it consider it consider it grotesque. But they grotesque. But they grotesque. But they mostly stay silent mostly stay silent mostly stay silent because it's risky. because it's risky. Even the Jamie Even the Jamie Dimon article that you Dimon article that you Dimon article that you say: yes, if you say: yes, if you say: yes, if you can read between can read between can read between the lines, Dimon the lines, Dimon the lines, Dimon disagrees with disagrees with disagrees with Trump, but as you Trump, but as you Trump, but as you say, he doesn't say, he doesn't say, he doesn't criticize Donald criticize Donald criticize Donald Trump openly. Trump openly. Trump openly. But this is a disagreement at a But this is a disagreement at a But this is a disagreement at a deep level, is deep level, is deep level, is n't it? n't it? Sure, but the sign Sure, but the sign that the dam has that the dam has that the dam has broken, for me, broken, for me, broken, for me, will be the moment when will be the moment when will be the moment when people tell the truth: people tell the truth: people tell the truth: that this guy is that this guy is that this guy is incredibly incredibly incredibly corrupt and he is corrupt and he is corrupt and he is harming harming harming America's interests. And that's a pretty America's interests. And that's a pretty America's interests. And that's a pretty grotesque way to grotesque way to grotesque way to use the use the use the Oval Office, and Oval Office, and Oval Office, and it goes against what it goes against what it goes against what we stand for we stand for we stand for as a country and as as a country and as as a country and as citizens. Isn't that right? citizens. Isn't that right? citizens. Isn't that right? I agree with this. I'm I agree with this. I'm I agree with this. I'm glad Jamie glad Jamie glad Jamie Dimon is advocating for Dimon is advocating for Dimon is advocating for decent trade decent trade decent trade policies, but I think policies, but I think policies, but I think that's a pretty low that's a pretty low that's a pretty low bar. Ahem.

bar. Ahem. I... So, look, I... Yeah, I agree. Um, and I would Yeah, I agree. Um, and I would Yeah, I agree. Um, and I would also just also just also just go back to those go back to those go back to those cascades of preferences. cascades of preferences. Um, I think Um, I think some of what has some of what has some of what has been accumulating was been accumulating was been accumulating was very well expressed in a very well expressed in a very well expressed in a wonderful article that the FT wonderful article that the FT wonderful article that the FT published right published right published right after after after Trump was re-elected, where they Trump was re-elected, where they Trump was re-elected, where they quoted an quoted an quoted an anonymous top anonymous top banker: "This... We banker: "This... We banker: "This... We can now say ' can now say ' can now say ' [ __ ]' and '[ __ ]' again. It's [ __ ]' and '[ __ ]' again. It's [ __ ]' and '[ __ ]' again. It's wonderful." wonderful." wonderful." Yeah, congratulations, dude. Yeah, congratulations, dude. Yeah, congratulations, dude. I mean… I mean… I mean… Also the fact that they Also the fact that they Also the fact that they quoted him quoted him quoted him anonymously is so… anonymously is so… anonymously is so… But… But… But… Some of these people. Some of these people. Some of these people. And it's so telling, And it's so telling, And it's so telling, like, "Wow, we were like, "Wow, we were like, "Wow, we were so oppressed. We were so oppressed. We were so oppressed. We were n't allowed to n't allowed to n't allowed to call people '[ __ ]' call people '[ __ ]' or '[ __ ].' It's horrible. What or '[ __ ].' It's horrible. What or '[ __ ].' It's horrible. What oppression we suffered oppression we suffered oppression we suffered under the Democrats." But I under the Democrats." But I under the Democrats." But I think it think it think it definitely was. And I definitely was. And I definitely was. And I suppose there's a growing understanding suppose there's a growing understanding suppose there's a growing understanding among very among very among very privileged people now privileged people now that that the policies of this the policies of this the policies of this administration are administration are administration are bad for America.

bad for America. It is bad for the It is bad for the country as a whole. It is country as a whole. It is country as a whole. It is bad for the country bad for the country bad for the country economically. It is economically. It is economically. It is bad for the country from a bad for the country from a bad for the country from a security perspective. security perspective. security perspective. Um, and business leaders Um, and business leaders Um, and business leaders are starting to see it. are starting to see it. Even people who Even people who call themselves very call themselves very call themselves very conservative and conservative and conservative and sympathize with some of the sympathize with some of the sympathize with some of the stated goals, I don't stated goals, I don't stated goals, I don't think they ever think they ever supported supported supported America turning America turning America turning into a kleptocracy that into a kleptocracy that into a kleptocracy that was was was Putin's best friend, Putin's best friend, Putin's best friend, wanted wanted wanted Ukraine to lose the war, and Ukraine to lose the war, and Ukraine to lose the war, and destroyed the destroyed the destroyed the NATO alliance. And that is exactly what is NATO alliance. And that is exactly what is NATO alliance. And that is exactly what is happening. happening. happening. So I want to bring So I want to bring So I want to bring the conversation back to the US and the conversation back to the US and the conversation back to the US and Canada. If a deal Canada. If a deal Canada. If a deal is reached by January 1, is reached by January 1, is reached by January 1, what do you what do you what do you think it will think it will think it will look like? What do look like? What do look like? What do you think are the main you think are the main you think are the main issues that issues that issues that can actually be resolved can actually be resolved can actually be resolved in a way that both in a way that both in a way that both sides can say, " sides can say, " Enough is enough. We Enough is enough. We Enough is enough. We can...We can can...We can can...We can back away from this."

back away from this." So, the first thing I'll So, the first thing I'll say is that the deal say is that the deal say is that the deal doesn't necessarily have to be done doesn't necessarily have to be done doesn't necessarily have to be done by January 1st. by January 1st. You just need to You just need to start negotiations start negotiations . And to say that we are . And to say that we are . And to say that we are declaring a truce declaring a truce declaring a truce on further tariffs on further tariffs on further tariffs while while while negotiations continue. And I think that would be a negotiations continue. And I think that would be a negotiations continue. And I think that would be a good state of good state of good state of affairs. As for affairs. As for affairs. As for where where where the negotiations are headed, I the negotiations are headed, I the negotiations are headed, I believe the believe the believe the outlines of a possible outlines of a possible outlines of a possible agreement have been defined, and it's agreement have been defined, and it's agreement have been defined, and it's not really just an agreement with not really just an agreement with not really just an agreement with Canada. I think it Canada. I think it Canada. I think it could be an agreement with could be an agreement with could be an agreement with all allies all allies all allies in general, including the EU in general, including the EU in general, including the EU and the UK. and the UK. America needs to say, America needs to say, “We actually want “We actually want “We actually want to be your friends. to be your friends. We want to be your We want to be your trading trading trading partners. We truly partners. We truly partners. We truly recognize that trade recognize that trade recognize that trade between us is between us is between us is mutually beneficial. It mutually beneficial. It mutually beneficial. It makes us richer. makes us richer. makes us richer. It makes us It makes us It makes us safer. But we are safer. But we are safer. But we are worried about China. Therefore, worried about China. Therefore, worried about China. Therefore, we would like to have a we would like to have a we would like to have a common policy common policy common policy towards China. And by " towards China. And by " common" I don't common" I don't common" I don't mean, you know, an mean, you know, an mean, you know, an identical tariff identical tariff identical tariff policy, but a common policy, but a common policy, but a common approach that has approach that has approach that has real power.

real power. Listen, I think it's Listen, I think it's important not to important not to important not to present this as something present this as something present this as something punitive towards China, punitive towards China, punitive towards China, but to create a space but to create a space but to create a space where our economies where our economies where our economies can also can also can also thrive and where we don't thrive and where we don't thrive and where we don't have a dangerous have a dangerous have a dangerous dependence on China. dependence on China. To me, that would be the To me, that would be the basic logic of a deal basic logic of a deal basic logic of a deal that could be struck. I would that could be struck. I would that could be struck. I would really like really like really like two things to happen. two things to happen. First, the rest of the First, the rest of the First, the rest of the democratic world democratic world democratic world should join should join should join Canada in responding to Canada in responding to Canada in responding to US tariffs. You know, US tariffs. You know, US tariffs. You know, declarations of declarations of declarations of solidarity and solidarity and solidarity and words that we are words that we are words that we are all friends are great, all friends are great, all friends are great, but what is needed now is a but what is needed now is a but what is needed now is a sad rather than sad rather than sad rather than angry, unified angry, unified angry, unified response from allies response from allies response from allies who will say: “This is who will say: “This is who will say: “This is unacceptable to us, and we are unacceptable to us, and we are unacceptable to us, and we are ready for ready for ready for negotiations. If there are negotiations. If there are negotiations. If there are elements of elements of elements of the trade the trade the trade relationship that relationship that relationship that you want us to you want us to you want us to work on, we are work on, we are work on, we are ready to do so, ready to do so, ready to do so, but we will not accept but we will not accept but we will not accept unilateral tariffs and unilateral tariffs and unilateral tariffs and will respond to them will respond to them will respond to them symmetrically, dollar for symmetrically, dollar for symmetrically, dollar for dollar. And if Canada, dollar. And if Canada, dollar. And if Canada, Mexico, the EU, as well as Mexico, the EU, as well as Mexico, the EU, as well as Japan, South Japan, South Japan, South Korea, Australia— Korea, Australia— basically all of basically all of America's democratic partners—were to respond together, I respond together, I respond together, I think you would see think you would see think you would see real significant real significant real significant pressure on the United pressure on the United pressure on the United States in the right States in the right States in the right direction. So I would really

direction. So I would really direction. So I would really like Canada not to be left like Canada not to be left like Canada not to be left alone. alone. The second thing I would The second thing I would like—and this like—and this like—and this happened during the happened during the happened during the first first first Trump administration—is for Trump administration—is for Trump administration—is for Americans to say to the Americans to say to the Americans to say to the White House, “This is White House, “This is White House, “This is crazy. You should crazy. You should crazy. You should stop doing this. stop doing this. American business needs to speak out much louder. I would say speak out much louder. I would say starting with the starting with the starting with the automotive automotive automotive industry. That's industry. That's industry. That's where we where we where we make things together. make things together. I think the results of the I think the results of the midterm elections midterm elections midterm elections will be very, very will be very, very will be very, very important. You know, I would important. You know, I would important. You know, I would say that Senator say that Senator say that Senator Grassley was the one who Grassley was the one who Grassley was the one who really had the courage really had the courage really had the courage last time and last time and last time and said to the president, " said to the president, " You have to You have to You have to stop this." "This is not the stop this." "This is not the stop this." "This is not the best idea." We best idea." We need more need more Republicans to Republicans to Republicans to say this. And you know, say this. And you know, say this. And you know, that poll you that poll you that poll you cited shows that cited shows that cited shows that Americans Americans Americans support support support Canadian counter-tariffs but Canadian counter-tariffs but Canadian counter-tariffs but do not support do not support do not support American tariffs American tariffs American tariffs against Canada, and to against Canada, and to against Canada, and to me that means that me that means that me that means that such a position would be such a position would be such a position would be popular.

popular. popular. I think this is a good point I think this is a good point I think this is a good point to end on. Our to end on. Our to end on. Our traditional final traditional final traditional final question: what three question: what three question: what three books would you recommend to books would you recommend to books would you recommend to our audience? our audience? our audience? Good. So, my books Good. So, my books are two "golden" are two "golden" are two "golden" works that I often works that I often works that I often reread, they are reread, they are reread, they are almost like almost like almost like characters in my characters in my characters in my life for me. Um, one of them is Les life for me. Um, one of them is Les Misérables by Ursula Misérables by Ursula Misérables by Ursula Le Guin. Do you know her? Le Guin. Do you know her? Le Guin. Do you know her? Mhm. Mhm. I love this book, I love this book, it really it really it really says so much about says so much about says so much about our times. Um, when you our times. Um, when you our times. Um, when you think about both the think about both the think about both the dystopian world dystopian world dystopian world she describes and the she describes and the she describes and the hope for a small hope for a small hope for a small group of brave group of brave group of brave people standing up for people standing up for people standing up for their values. So I their values. So I their values. So I love this book. Um, love this book. Um, love this book. Um, the second one is “The Player” by the second one is “The Player” by the second one is “The Player” by Ian Banks. Um, uh... Ian Banks. Um, uh... Ian Banks. Um, uh... You're a science You're a science You're a science fiction fan. fiction fan. fiction fan. Oh, yes, definitely. I have Oh, yes, definitely. I have Oh, yes, definitely. I have always been her. I've been always been her. I've been always been her. I've been reading science reading science reading science fiction ever since I fiction ever since I fiction ever since I learned to learned to learned to read. And you know, I read. And you know, I read. And you know, I think it's darker think it's darker . Um, but there is also . Um, but there is also . Um, but there is also light and hope in it. And I light and hope in it. And I light and hope in it. And I recommend both of those books recommend both of those books because I really because I really because I really think, you know, we haven't think, you know, we haven't think, you know, we haven't talked talked talked about AI that much. But the combination of about AI that much. But the combination of about AI that much. But the combination of AI and a geopolitical AI and a geopolitical AI and a geopolitical order that's order that's order that's broken, and people broken, and people broken, and people having questions having questions having questions partly because of partly because of partly because of economics, partly economics, partly economics, partly because of geopolitics,

because of geopolitics, because of geopolitics, partly because of AI, is partly because of AI, is a question about what it a question about what it a question about what it means to be human. means to be human. Um, I think Um, I think reading science reading science reading science fiction is a fiction is a fiction is a really good way really good way really good way to explore these to explore these to explore these issues. So, these are two issues. So, these are two issues. So, these are two great books that I great books that I great books that I highly recommend. And highly recommend. And highly recommend. And my third choice is “The Book of my third choice is “The Book of my third choice is “The Book of Life,” a kind of Life,” a kind of Life,” a kind of memoir by Margaret memoir by Margaret memoir by Margaret Atwood. And it's just a Atwood. And it's just a Atwood. And it's just a wonderful book. Um, she is wonderful book. Um, she is , of course, a brilliant , of course, a brilliant , of course, a brilliant writer. Um, writer. Um, writer. Um, the book reveals her as the book reveals her as the book reveals her as just an amazing just an amazing just an amazing person who doesn't person who doesn't person who doesn't take herself too take herself too take herself too seriously, who can seriously, who can seriously, who can laugh at her laugh at her laugh at her weaknesses and failures, weaknesses and failures, weaknesses and failures, who isn't who isn't who isn't narcissistic. Um, and narcissistic. Um, and narcissistic. Um, and Ezra, we were talking about Ezra, we were talking about Ezra, we were talking about how suddenly people how suddenly people how suddenly people started to be interested in started to be interested in started to be interested in Canada. Um, her life Canada. Um, her life is truly a is truly a is truly a Canadian story. And Canadian story. And Canadian story. And reading her account reading her account reading her account of individual episodes in her of individual episodes in her of individual episodes in her life life life tells you a lot about tells you a lot about tells you a lot about Canada.

Canada. Canada. Christia Freeland, Christia Freeland, Christia Freeland, thank you very much. thank you very much. thank you very much. It was wonderful.