The Real Reason Pastors Burn Out (It’s Not What You Think)

I think there's not just fear, there's shame. Um, what have I done? Um, and who am I? Like I that I was capable of doing this over the course of the last 20 years, you know, and that I I like I'll hear things like, "Chuck, I was the pastor that staff liked. They I was the one that they came to. I was the one that they trusted. And now I'm the one that um you know that I like I fear that they're I'll just say it out loud that you know they're going to report me to the Roy. You know, this is what I use all the time. Like, I I don't want to be that guy. >> Welcome to the Carrie Nu-Hoff Leadership Podcast. Today, Chuck Deg Gro is back on the podcast. You ever think to yourself, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that church leader. I don't want to be that woman. Shame, burnout, and the limits of spiritual discipline. So, what is the impact of leadership on the nervous system? And so much more. We go there. How do you know as a young leader that you might be headed for crisis? What happens if the empire you built is crumbling? What role do character and charisma play in leadership? We explore [music] all those things today on the podcast. If you're new here, you're interested in topics like this, make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And a really warm welcome to all of you. Chuck Dro is a licensed therapist specializing in pastoral and leadership health, spiritual abuse, and religious trauma.

He serves as a professor of counseling in Christian spirituality and founding director of the clinical mental health counseling program at Western Theological Seminary. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. So without further ado, my conversation with Chuck Dro. Chuck, it's good to have you back and we're on a recurrent theme both in your ministry and on this podcast. We're going to drill down on challenges with character that a lot of leaders are having. Um, you had, I think, a huge, um, impact with your book on when narcissism comes to church. I know we did a really great conversation. I'd love to know what made you focus in on character. It's something I'm thinking about, you know, through 31 years into church leadership now, you know, in different capacities. 20 as a lead pastor, 11 doing this. >> Yeah. um character just seems to be front and center. Like I if I don't watch that, I'm dead, man. Like >> I don't know what what's made you really uh think about that.

>> Yeah, I mean I'm glad it's front and center. Um my sense was that uh for a long time, you know, I'm a therapist, you know that, but therapy, spiritual practices, and things like that had become front and center. And uh well, I remember a time back in the late 90s when I became, you know, an ordained minister and a licensed therapist that I I hoped that therapy and spiritual practices would be would grow in terms of their prevalence and their impact and influence. But I I guess I wondered particularly after the narcissism book, um are people really changing? Are people >> really being transformed? And that's some of what animated this book. A lot of people have asked me over the years, can people really change? Um, from the most difficult folks, you know, people who are diagnosibly narcissistic to, you know, the the rest of us who might not be diagnosed with some personality disorder, but we're just stuck. You know, we're not sure how to get out of a particular pattern. And so, I wanted to take a positive turn. I mean, I I think in some ways the narcissism book was a diagnostic, but I also want >> We all thought we were narcissists there for about 10 minutes. Chuck, thank you.

>> It uh maybe we are it took some self-reflection to write that book around my own patterns, right? So, it's >> Yeah, >> it's like I wanted to take a positive turn and and think about how do we grow and change? >> Yeah, >> that's that's very Dallas Willardy, right? your your your greatest gift is who you're becoming. >> That is the journey. >> So, let's talk about um character. I've always well I'm not always thought I've learned >> one of the greatest dangers for me anyway is if my platform got bigger than my character. That terrifies me. And that almost happened prior to my burnout 20 years ago. And then there was a total rewiring of my inside. And a lot of that was focused on character growth. It Well, let let me let me ask it this way. I'm kind of rambly today. Is character growth spiritual growth? Is spiritual growth character growth? Like how do how do they interact? Because I look at my last 20 years and there's been I think a lot of both and I'm like I would not have been able to handle the influence that I have been given today.

>> Yeah. with the character development I had in my 30s, I think I would have been a headline and roadkill and a casualty. >> And so I'm not saying I have exemplary character. I am saying it has been active development for me now. And I'm trying to make sure that my character development outpaces any platform development. >> Yeah. [snorts] Well, you did the interior work and you've told me a little bit about this before and I don't know your whole story, but >> it feels significant like you you have the kind of story that a lot of us mine happened about 15 years ago when I landed in the hospital. And so, uh, these moments that wake us up and invite us to do the interior work, which by the way isn't the invention of modern day psychology. I mean, go back to St. Augustine, the first ever autobiographer, nine chapters of his own stuff, his own addictions. Uh it's it's work that I think we're all invited to do, but in this sort of fast-paced, efficient, speeddriven kind of Christian culture that we live in, uh it's often what's left behind because it's slow.

It's necessarily slow work. And so I think what ends up happening through the burnout, through the hospitalization, is it necessarily slows us down and reorients us in a particular kind of way. And it isn't it interesting that it often for a lot of us I'm 56 now it happens close to midlife you know where >> as Thomas Merren said we climb the ladder only to realize that we've propped it up against the wrong wall and so >> there is this kind of awakening this realization that often comes through uh significant challenges burnout hospitalizations uh diagnosis and more. Yeah, you you kind of wish there didn't have to be a crisis for we do have a lot of nextgen leaders listening to this show, watching it for those who are in their 30s. What should they be looking for? >> What should be the signs? >> Yeah. Well, maybe we should just say manufacturer crisis of some some kind before it happens to you, right? But >> you know what what should you be looking for? I mean, I think I think what you're inviting even in the question is just pay attention. pay attention to your life. Uh you're probably operating at a speed that uh doesn't allow that. And that's what I find. You know, I do these fiveday intenses with pastors and uh and leaders of all different stripes and what they'll so often say is I just I didn't pay attention. I read that one book, you know, that one book by Pete Scazero, that one book by Steve or

whoever, right? But I didn't slow down long enough to pay attention to what was happening beneath the surface. And that's the interesting thing. And I get into some of these dynam dynamics around the nervous system, but >> the the reality is is that I'll have leaders come in and they'll say, "I'm not I'm not anxious. Like I'm the least anxious guy." Look, look, I get onto the stage and I can speak in front of thousands and yet their nervous systems are in chronic dysregulation, which is to say they learned a long, long time ago to operate at a particular kind of speed, in a particularly kind of braced way, vigilant way. And and so I want them to slow down long enough to notice. But as you know, most of us don't take the time to do that or we feel like we can't afford that time or we feel like we're going to get in trouble if we, you know, if we step away for sbatical. I I was just talking to a pastor a couple hours ago and he's just getting back from sbatical and his biggest fear is will they think I was lazy for doing it.

He just literally had an 8week sbatical and he's like they're all going to critique me for being too lazy, for taking time away. And so >> we worry about these kinds of things. Uh I I wish it wasn't all on us. I wish I wish that the church systems that we were in, I wish our denominational cultures prized a slower formation, but they don't often prize that kind of formation. When somebody shows up at one of your fiveday intensives, what usually brings them there? Are people doing it like for an annual checkup or it's like here come the flames. I'm going down. Like what what do you see typically? >> Well, sometimes it's they're in flames and sometimes [clears throat] uh >> you know they've decided to come because they're in crisis. Sometimes it's their it's their denomination, it's their presbyter, it's their dasis. You know, whatever context they're in, >> get referred, right? >> You need to come. and and and those you know those are some of the toughest ones but there are many who are maybe they listen to your your podcast and if they've read your work and they uh they they have this sense that maybe it's time I'm 35 maybe it's time I sat with a guy who was uh 32 last week and I loved it because he's he's still young enough to be sort of malleable you know and yet he's just beginning to um rub against the hard edges of ministry and experience a little bit of the you know the the the cynicism that comes with

with some of that some of the hardship some of the and so we we had some things to talk about he's not at a point of crisis and so you know we we were able to do enough work and and then we'll see what happens over the next few years you know but it's it's sort of like I I take people as they come and uh I find that usually the folks who are who engage the work at the deepest level are the ones who have had the rug pulled out from under them. They they are turned upside down and they don't uh they're at a place where they it's like I don't have anything more to lose. You know, maybe I've lost my ministry or my marriage or and and so there's more of a willingness there. >> What are some of the signs for leaders at any age, but I'm thinking particularly of younger leaders? Um, I ignored the signs for a long time in my 30s. It was my wife who says, "Look, you need to go to counseling or this isn't going to work out."

>> Um, it was a mentor of mine who tricked me into doing some of my it was it was called Pastors of Excellence, the program. He goes, "Carrie, you need to come." I really trust Chuck. Still do. And I'm like, "Well, excellence, yes, I need that. I need more of that. Look at how fast our church is growing." And then it turned out to be a whole journey of the soul. And I if Chuck wasn't there and it wasn't a 5-hour drive from Ohio back to where I lived, I probably would have just walked out that first night. >> Needless to say, it began to unear started to do the work >> that needed to be done, the the inner healing the >> reflection, the change, the transformation. And now I see it as a gift. But at the time I just rolled my eyes because I was smarter than that. I was better than that. I was stronger than that. So for leaders who are like disregulated nervous system, nah, this is great. I'm doing great. Like what are what are some of the subtle signs that you need to be looking for before the house is on fire or your wife says you need to go to counseling?

>> Yeah, it's really interesting because I think you just named one of them. that sense that you could do it alone, that you don't need community, that you don't need others, that you don't need a mirror, you know, of relationship, of people in your life, a community of folks who say, "This is what we see in you." That's one thing that I see over and over again. Um, I see. >> So, the fact that you don't think you need it is a sign that you need it. >> Yeah. Right. >> That's what you're saying. >> Yeah. I think so. I think I I mean that that's exactly when people sit on that couch over there and they're two days into a 5-day intensive. That's when I hear the truth. That's when they say, "I really thought I could do this on my own. I really thought that all of that stuff uh that people have written or people name about ministry or pastoral health or formation was for other people. I I thought I was immune to it." Um, so that's one of one of the things I think what they begin to notice is that the anxiety grows. I think this is the myth is that, you know, I'm I'm I'm a 25-year-old and I've just graduated from seminary. I'm pretty anxious. But when I'm 40 in ministry, I won't be as anxious, right? [laughter] You know this, right? You're laughing because you know in your body that the anxiety grows, the responsibility grows, there are more eyes on you. uh you're you're the target of those Monday morning emails and so there's >> you're also out of tricks. You've done everything you can do on your own to solve it and it just gets worse. Yeah, >> that's it. That that connects back to

I've tried to do it on my own, right? And so you you begin to notice some of that, some of the anxiety grow. You begin to notice some of your own contradictions. you begin to see the this is the person I want to be. But then at times this is the guy I show up as or the woman I show up as in the office, you know, and so some of the that that pervasive reactivity shows up that maybe lies dormant. Maybe your spouse sees it, but now it's starting to come out uh and others are beginning to see it. >> Uh and so I I think there, you know, there are some subtle things that come out. It doesn't take a moral failure. And that's what I always say to these younger pastors, you know, don't don't wait for the the massive moral failure. You know, it takes these just noticing those contradictions, noticing that the anxiety is growing, noticing that you're pulling away, you know, on Sunday mornings because that particular person is someone who's said hard things to you. Uh noticing that you're drinking a little bit more in the evenings. Uh those kinds of things are the things that we should be watching out for.

You talked about noticing growing anxiety. I am wonderfully in denial on that to some extent even to today and my aura ring really helps me figure out how I'm doing. I'm obviously much more aware of it now than I was 20, 30 years ago. But yeah, I just thought stress was normal, lack of sleep was normal, drive was normal, push, push, push, all of that defined my 30s. And like you said at the beginning, there are some people are like, "What do you mean? I'm very relaxed. This is great." But you're saying their body has adapted to this unsustainable pace. So, how would somebody listening know that there might be anxiety present or >> something that isn't sustainable when they think it's totally sustainable? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, first I want to say I think and you probably agree with this, the systems tell us that that pace is normal. you know, I mean, just the way we've we've come to sort of expect pastors to the pace we expect them to work at, you know, the what's normal, >> that's a that's a problem in and of itself. And I wonder how we we steer the ship in a different direction. But say the question again about the anxiety.

What what >> Yeah. Well, how would I even know if I think I'm not a very anxious person. I think I'm cool. Because you've had those people sitting there and you're like, "Oh, I see it." >> Yeah. Well, that takes a little bit more work. I wish I wish there was something that I could uh point to that would be sort of an easy tell, but I'm Yeah, I was just having a conversation with a very large church pastor who I spent a little time with uh just today and he said, you know, anxiety for what I learned about anxiety was that I studied benium and family systems and I learned that anxiety exists in systems and I learned about triangulation and I learned about differentiation and things like this but I never no one ever told me that from a very early age, my nervous system learned dysregulation or what we call sympathetic activation as normal. >> Grew up in a ministry family. Uh grew up thinking this is just the pace that we go at. Grew up with certain expectations. And so what he was saying is I I didn't have anyone in my life who oriented me to what I call home or what Paul in Ephesians 3 calls that rooted and grounded place in his his great prayer. you know, he prays for rooted and grounded lives. And so, it's like I had no one to apprentice me in groundedness. And so, that's the piece that I often see as significant as I'm sitting with these pastors and it's like, is there any other speed to go at?

And so as we begin to reflect on what it might look like to live in a way that's a little bit different, tears come to their eyes because it's like, "Oh, but I I don't know that. No one's ever told me about that beautiful land. That's undiscovered country for me." And I'm just hanging out here on the hamster wheel going going and then falling flat on my face. And so what ends up happening is I do a little bit of um uh I I do a little bit of description of how the nervous system works. And as these guys begin to listen and pay attention, it's a little bit of a psychoeducational um angle that I work with, as I give them some of the basics of the human nervous system, there's this sense that, oh, I don't know what that home place is that you're talking about, Chuck. What I do know is vigilance. What I do know is being braced in every meeting that I go into. What I do know are those digestive symptoms that people call IBS that I can't seem to get rid of. What I do know is that, you know, chronic exhaustion on Sunday evenings or at the end of weeks where it just feels like I'm numb and I can't get myself up. Uh that's that's those are the kinds of things we begin to pay attention to. I call that the the dashboard. We pay attention to the signals on the dashboard that tell us something about what's happening in our autonomic engine below.

>> This episode is brought to you by Glue. So, I want to ask you something. What would it change for your ministry if you could just focus on the mission? I mean, no wrestling with tech, no guessing whether your marketing is actually working. Well, I've got Brian Brown here who leads the team within Glue focused on helping ministries expand their reach. Brian, give people the short version like what is Glue? Everybody asked me that question. >> Yeah, thanks Carrie. Simply put, Glue is the tech platform for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Glue exists to serve people who serve others like your listeners. >> We do this two things really well. We handle tech and we help people connect with people. On the tech side of things, we bring engineering talent, scalable infrastructure, deep expertise in ministry and nonprofit tech so that you're not burning nights trying to hold all of your systems together by sheer force of will. And on the reach side, we help you actually connect with donors, with supporters, with the people you're actually trying to serve, which results in better engagement, smarter distribution, and a real marketing strategy, not just throwing things at the wall anymore. And increasingly, we're using AI to make all of that faster, sharper, better. But our bottom line is this. You stay focused on the front lines and we'll handle the stuff behind them. So, it kind of sounds like Glue is building out the infrastructure and also the staffing that most churches are like, "Yeah, we can't do all that because we don't have the staff." So, Brian, thanks for that explainer. I

appreciate it. So, if you're a church or nonprofit, and I personally have partnered with Glue as well, our company does. Uh, and you're tired of spinning plates, go to glue.com/grow. I want to spell that out for you. That's glow.com/grow. This episode is brought to you by my friends at GlobalChristian Relief. For a lot of us, the persecuted church can feel pretty distant. But the global church isn't an idea. It's not a concept. It's a family. And when one part of the body suffers, we don't get to stay spectators. We're called to action. So, I want to tell you about a nonprofit you should know about, Global Christian Relief. This organization is led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for over a decade. And I'm thankful for the way he leads GCR because he's helping our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ know that they're not alone. GCR supports our global church family in places where following Jesus carries a real cost. Places like Nigeria Pakistan Syria India Iran and many more. GCR brings scripture to people where it's restricted. It provides emergency relief when crisis hits and supports the church long-term so it can remain and grow stronger. When you support the global church, you're not just supporting a cause. You're standing with your brothers and sisters, with your family. Global Christian Relief is doing some really impactful work. I would love for you to check them out. All you have to do is go to

gcreief.org. That's gcreief.org. Let's talk a little bit more about the home >> sensation you're talking about. I've been thinking about that in the context of >> some of Ronald Rollheiser's writings on dark nights of the soul and spiritual maturity. I don't know that I'm experiencing home. I think I feel home more than I have. I'll give you a very tangible example. So, uh this weekend we had a we're doing this on a Monday. Uh this weekend we had a uh family event on Saturday night that led me to go to bed at I don't know 10:30 11 which is later than I normally go >> and then we had church on Sunday and then my wife was speaking at a church about an hour away and we went up with friends had dinner with them then heard her speak at the evening service and drove back dropped off our friends didn't get to bed till 11:30. old me would have had the alarm at 4:45 5 a.m.

Go, go, go. I'm like, I don't live that way anymore. And I slept until 8 a.m. I was really surprised. And >> I feel great >> today. But old me would have just push push pushed and been very tired heading into this interview. New me is >> I've got this much time for work today. I have this much I want to bring my best energy. I'm going to give it and then I'm going to do other lifegiving things tonight to quote our our good friend Steve Cus and my capacity expands when I do that. I don't know whether that's home or what like what is home. >> Yeah. I think you just used important words expansive capacity is what I would describe as home and it's something that can be grown. I think the mistake that we've made is we've we've turned this into a set of practices or behaviors that you're supposed to do to to be a little bit more centered, a little bit more calm or a little bit more stable. So, walk the labyrinth or take a sbatical or practice contemplative prayer. Um, I I'd want to say all those things are are helpful, but you're just I if if you're not aware of what's going on underneath in that autonomic engine that I just mentioned, you may be laying practices onto a disregulated nervous system. And so what I first want to do is I want to what we call increase our window of tolerance, which is analogous to home. I want to expand your home. I want to increase your square footage, let's just say, of your internal home,

right? And so you're working with like a 100 square feet right now. Let's get you to a thousand. Let's get you to 3,000. What does that mean? >> That that doesn't mean that you're living in perpetual like zen calm. Um we all, you know, if if if you're in ministry, you will experience seasons that are fuller than others. When when I was in pastoral ministry, my body, you know, would ramp up at Advent into Christmas, you know, and then back again at Lent into Easter. And there's seasons where you feel a little bit more revved up and seasons where you can sort of step back. But if you could can increase this window of tolerance and this takes some practice. This takes some stretching. It's like stretching new muscles of the nervous system. What ends up happening is that your tank's not perpetually on empty. You might go down to half a tank or something like that, but you can sort of find your way back more quickly. And what people will say is, "Oh, that hard thing like I got that email on Monday morning from that person always sends emails on Monday morning, but it didn't clobber me like so many of the emails tend to clobber me." That's what we call resilience. And so what we're doing is we're growing resilience.

We're not making it about do do this behavior over here, take the sbatical or just practice this thing on Saturdays. or like let's grow your capacity not so that you can do more more more more but so that you can be more resilient in the midst of the everyday stresses of life. Yeah, that's really interesting. I was finishing up a sermon I'm preaching in California um in a few weeks this morning and I had tackled that last week and it was technically internal deadline due last week and I love to hit my deadlines but I thought I haven't got the frame of mind to really do do it excellently and so this morning having had eight or nine hours sleep I got up and it was so easy to put together I mean sermons are never easy but you know what I mean I had a clarity >> I wouldn't have had had I cheated sleep or tried to cram it in >> at the end of a very full week before the weekend. >> Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? Because I find that capacity >> Yeah.

>> like my need for rest, thought, and downtime continues to go up as I get older, not down. >> Yeah. I mean, I think you're naming it as as your own experience. And that's exactly what I ask for when I sit with these pastors, you know, like what what's your [clears throat] own experience of home? Like how have you noticed yourself in that place where you just feel more capacious and more resilient? And they'll tell me stories like they we all have stories of Yeah. I was there was one pastor I was talking to who's a little bit embarrassed to say it out loud and I was like, "Come on, you can tell me." And he's like, "Well, for me it's in a deer stand." And I was like "Well >> it's a witch. A deer stand. >> Deer stand." And I I was like, "Well, I grew up on Long Island, New York. you're gonna have to educate this guy. You know, I've lived in cities a lot of my life. And he's like, "Well, I just like for me, it's the quiet of of uh a morning. I go up into my stand and I'm I like to hunt and I do it maybe a couple times a year." And that's where I I breathe because, you know, he's connected to his that's this is an interesting piece we haven't really talked about is he's connected to his breath. And when I asked about that, he said, "Oh, yeah. In ministry, I live kind of like this, like all the time." And he said up in the deer stand I'm connected to my breathing because it helps me to calm down and be present. And I was like what if you were able to take that and bring that into sermon planning and writing into your staff meeting and and again tears down his face like I'd never even thought

about that. I mean, and and what was sad to him is like, I ought to be able to show up in ministry with that kind of presence. And yet, it's up in a deer stand where I experienced that. Not, you know, not in the pulpit, not at staff meeting. And so, this is this is part of, you know, the work that is unique to every one of us because like Carrie, you have you have your own story, right? And >> the deer stand, he has his own story. the megaurch pastor that I'm working with. Well, for for him, it's it's completely unique and he's learning for the first time in his late 50s to get connected to some of these deeper realities. Um, and that's some of the fun of the work. The problem is it's not a one-sizefits-all, so you can't write the bestselling book doing that, but it's uh nevertheless, I think there are some universal things that can be applied here. >> Let's dive a little bit more into the physiology, Chuck. Yeah. So, I think I'm I'm very good at naturally ignoring what my body is saying and getting better at as I get older. But talk about the relationship between mental health and your actual physiology.

>> Yeah. Well, the first thing I like to say when I speak on these kinds of things is that this isn't unique to 21st century pastoring. Rowan Williams has this great book. You know, Rowan Williams, our former archbishop. >> I met him briefly. I I I haven't spent a lot of time in his book. >> I actually know him. You've actually met him? I haven't but I I love his work and he is an authority on the early church and he says that you know the early church fathers were very interested in what I've been calling the autonomic engine what happens beneath the waterline. They were very interested in the anxiety sort of the besetting anxiety underneath uh our behaviors. They were they were interested in our our uh what he calls our spirit of inquisitiveness. um need uh act you know the spirit of acquisition like we've got to constantly grab after the thing that we think will help will fill us will satisfy us and what he's talking about is a kind of anxiety that uh needed to be paid attention to and I think the same reality goes for human physiology today we just have better words for it today uh the reality is that our nervous system has three gears I'll just make it really simple home >> home is that rooted and grounded place that we can find our way back to home is the place where if we spend enough time there we're increasing our window of tolerance what I call storm which is sympathetic activation which is really good if you're about to be hit by a car you know going through the intersection the other direction right steer away by

all means um act activate at that point right it's not great if you learn very early in life to live in that kind of vigilant state um that's storm so home storm and and fog. Fog fog is a a what we call a dorsal state. It's a state of overwhelm, a state of shutdown. Your your listeners will know about those times where it's like they go go and they fall off a cliff and they've got zero energy and they're laying on the couch watching college football and their kids come running up to them and daddy daddy daddy will you play with us and daddy's taking a Sabbath right now but you know daddy's just you know half dead on the couch you know that's the dorsal fog and what I often say is that if your body learned storm and fog at a very early age as normal Chances are you're going to live there and that's going to shape your character over the course of time. And so >> you may on the outside look like a a faithful pastor and you may preach in ways that are affirmed by well well-meaning and thoughtful people and on the inside your your body may be in a state of disregulation that will cost you at some point. I mean it landed me in a Mexican hospital while I was on vacation at 42 years old. It will catch up in one way or another. It looks different in every one of us. For some it looks like burnout and others sometimes hospitalization. For some the inflammation leads to disease or chronic fatigue or some but it will catch up to

you in one way or another. >> Home storm and fog. Are those your terms? Are they psychological terms? Did >> Yeah, they're my terms for these three states of what we call vententral, sympathetic, and dorsal. Um, I think it's really helpful when I work with people, uh, I ask them to, uh, to find their own names. What, how would you describe it? What would your weather pattern be? You know, perhaps storm for you is tornado or hurricane or something like that. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Maybe fog is desert um or wilderness. Um, and so it's really important that we find our own names and descriptors for these internal states. But most important is for us to get a sense of when am I experiencing this and what is it like for me when I'm in storm? When am I in storm? So most most pastors I work with will tell me well well they'll they'll say like when am I not in storm?

>> Exactly. >> I spend most of my I wake up the phone is right next to my bed. I pick it up and I'm already checking email or I'm already checking something else online, you know. And so, uh, it then it becomes a question of like how do we best anchor in what I call home, that rooted and grounded place. One of the things I've realized in my own life is we all build up skill sets and we have a lot of muscle memory. So, in that season of burnout when I was in a combination of storm and fog, uh, I had enough muscle memory to know how to write a sermon, get up there and deliver it, tough it out for two or three services. >> And prior, sometimes during and often after, I feel numb and dead. >> Yes. >> But in the moment, nobody watching that would be able to pick it up. And I just realized what a deadly pattern that is. >> Yes.

>> But I'm I think almost everybody listening to this in leadership can relate to that pattern. So what happens if you have so much like I know what I have to do at this board meeting. I know what I have to do at this staff meeting. I know what I have to do at this donor event. I know what I have to do this Sunday. I know I'm just going to put on my podcast hat and do this interview. >> But it's not from a place of home. >> Yeah. This is why I talk about it in terms of character. Uh some of your listeners may know the name James K. A Smith. He's a philosopher. He's written a number of books desiring the kingdom. You're what you're love. He talks about habits that become automaticities. And I like that word automaticities. In other words, this is second nature. This is just what I do. This is what I know. And you've got to catch yourself in the act of automaticity in the sense of like this has become a pattern. Um, I remember I was preaching down in Georgia and I had that moment that some of us know where I I was sort of listening to myself talk, but I was standing behind myself watching myself talk.

>> Um, and it was so disruptive that I was flying back through O'Hare that evening. My flight was cancelled. Most who've flown through O'Hare know this story of the flight being cancelled. Yes. And um I get a hotel and um I remember that evening I had three martinis and um I woke up the next morning headache, groggy, feeling awful about myself and I was I was I was sort of caught my own patterns. Right. And this is this is where you want to be caught uh rather than some significant moral failure. >> Right. Right. Three martinis is a little lower stakes than some of the other choices. >> But it's real. And and that was the only time I did that. And that wasn't the only time that I'd had that sense that I I'm not connected to what I'm saying right now. Um the the problem is a lot of us in ministry don't have anyone to talk to about that. Like who are we going to say? Like I'm not sure that I'm quite myself up there when everything is riding, especially if you're the senior pastor, everything's sort of riding on you, you know? Um and and then if we do name it, we want to find the quickest solution. And that's not how character works.

Character doesn't change through quick solutions. Right? If these are automaticities, if they're habits that have been sort of constructed, this is the hidden architecture of our lives crafted, constructed over time, then the remedy will likely be slower too. And so this this is where the rub is really when it comes to the character conversation because there's not a quick efficient take this sbatical uh engage this spiritual practice read Chucker Car's book and boom you'll be there uh slow character is really slow change that uh begins at the level of those automaticities right begins at the level of physiology. Chuck, I want to talk about the fears of getting healthy. I mean, one of the things when I started to realize, oh, I've I've got some work to do and particularly on the other side of burnout, I was very afraid. Like definitely my operating system wasn't working except it was working.

>> The church was growing at compound growth of over 30% a year, year after year after year. People were genuinely be getting saved, getting baptized. I mean, the whole deal it was working. And I was terrified if I changed the operating system, so to speak, out of fog and storm that somehow all of that success would go away. I was addicted >> to the dysfunction. What do you do? Like I've talked to other leaders about this offmic and they're also scared. Like if I go and you make me better, they're Mr. Psychotherapist. >> Yeah. >> You're going to ruin me. Like what if I end up leading nothing? >> Yeah. >> Great. Thanks for breaking me. >> Yeah, that's a it's a really good question. And and I often in those times uh put those pastors in touch with some other pastors who've made the courageous decision to shift or change in one way or another. you. And often times, you know, if it's a big church pastor, I'm going to put you in touch with a big church pastor who who made the courageous decision to maybe have a conversation with the elder board about what was going on. Um, but I there's not a single prescription. I wish there was.

Um, and you know, the the reality is is that our our nervous system automaticities look different for some of us. you know, uh we're not we're not quite as um it hasn't had the implications that it has for others. I'll just put it that way, right? Like for some you see uh that the the damage that has been been done relationally, the debris field of damage relationally and the damage that has been done to their bodies is really substantial. For others of us, like we were talking about earlier, we're caught at like 35, 37, and it's it's not quite as bad, but we're beginning to see the cost. Our >> 41. >> We're seeing it. Yeah. We're seeing it with our kids. We're seeing our relationship with our spouse. And so, for me, it's like, well, let me give you a picture of what this could look like. Let's count the cost, you know, and let me not be one of those therapists. I was a pastor for a long time, so I'm I I think I have a sense of the reality of it, right? So, let me not be one of those therapists that simply tell you, "Well, you just need to make this change." And that's what integrity looks like, and go ahead and do that. Let's be honest about the the reality that if you do go back and say, "I'm a different person than I was when I left eight weeks ago before my sbatical." They might say, "Get out of here, buddy. You don't have a job here anymore. We want that compounding growth." you know, >> and so uh what's a good paced way of you re-entering and who are the kinds of who

are your conversation partners? Which elder do you feel safest with to have this initial conversation with? Let's just start to tease it out. What might it look like for me to operate just a little bit differently here for our staff to engage culture just a little bit differently? for us to maybe hire that consultant that we've needed to hire for a while to help us rethink our life together here. But, um, I I don't I don't push people to make these kinds of wild decisions that would, uh, uh, turn them their lives upside down. That's not good for nervous systems either, right? And so, um, I want to think really carefully and craft plans that are specific to the past. So, if you catch it young, I'm just trying to tie some threads together before we move on. >> If you catch it young or relatively young, like I I would say, and I'm not trying to make this whole thing about my story, but there are some direct connections. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is I had done I had done some relational damage, >> but there wasn't big headline damage or anything like that. And uh what I feared that it would reduce my capacity actually greatly expanded my capacity.

>> Yeah. >> And what I could handle in terms of resilience. >> Yes. Yes. I think you just named something that's so important. Um the fact that when you do this work and you expand your window of tolerance, you actually have more energy. Like I at 42 I well I felt like I was 62. my surgeon who who saw that my you know my my body was not well you know um he said Chuck you're operating your body looks like you're in your 60s I I I was not well at that time at 56 I have way more energy and way more capacity so I'm actually in my ministry uh probably offering a lot more giving a lot more than I might have uh in my early 40s that's the paradox of all of this is that I I think when when we think about the traditional ways that we've talked about these things for so many years around spiritual practices and stuff like that, I think a lot of pastors think, well, you're just trying to get me to slow down and all those practices are about um ma make me feel like, you know, spiritual practice is is akin to laziness. And uh I I'm like I want to give you I want to give you the tools and I w to I want to invite you to stretch the muscles of your nervous system in a way that actually increase your capacity. Not so that you're more busy. I I like I mentioned I'm in a conversation with a large church pastor where it's like now that he's done some

of that work. It's not that he wants to get more busy. It's that he's finally able to discern in a way that he was not able to discern when he was in that place of reactivity, that place of let me just solve the problem out of this >> can't be on. >> That's right. So now now it's like okay for me to be effective in this season of my ministry. Um these are the things I want to give myself to. But I can do that my from a wholehearted place. My yes can be a wholehearted yes. I couldn't do that just a couple of years ago before we started meeting because I was living in a posture of reactivity. >> So if you're younger, there's a promise there. And you know, we haven't even touched on it. You're going to be a better father. You're going to be a better husband, wife, you're going to be a better, you name it, friend. >> Like that that I've discovered. [snorts] >> You talked about there being debris. Like some people come to you at my stage in their early 60s and by this time the the shine is off the apple. The empire is broken. Maybe there were 20 years of growth and now there's been five years of >> division and faction and >> it's all crumbling around them. There must be a lot of fear there too. What is sort of the promise or the reparability of a situation where there has been a crash or so much collateral damage that

it seems >> irreversible. >> Yeah. Because there I think there's not just fear, there's shame. Um what have I done? Um and who am I? like I that I was capable of doing this over the course of the last 20 years, you know, and that I I like I'll hear things like, "Chuck, I was the pastor that >> staff liked. They I was the one that they came to. I was the one that they trusted and now I'm the one that um you know that I like I fear that they're I'll just say it out loud that you know, they're going to report me to the Royport. You know, this is what I hear all the time. Like I I don't want to be that guy." And so there's a lot of shame underneath. And so those are really sacred conversations to be honest as you might imagine you know because there there's often uh once you're able to name that tears and then some sense of like so what do I do and what I what I'd say is I don't want to move too quickly to let's fix this like let's clean up your mess. I want to work with you and how do how do we begin to change in a way that you you do become that pastor that person who's more resilient, more capacious and then let's have those kinds of conversation. Then let's go and say say to some of the folks on your staff that we need to have conversations with. So what what has been your experience with me? What what is what has it been like working for me over these last five years or or 10 years?

And I find that once a pastor has done some of his or her work, they're more ready for those kinds of conversations. I mean, think about it. If your body is still locked in what I call storm, sympathetic activation, those conversations aren't going to go well, you're probably going to be defensive. No, no, no, no, no. You're not thinking about it right. But I think even if the even the if the person giving feedback isn't spoton in their analysis isn't 100% correct, you're going to be able to receive it with a sense of thank you for telling me about your experience. >> Let's talk a little bit more about shame. >> Yeah, >> I think it's a very powerful thing and it's also the thing that keeps us from telling anybody, right? I'm so ashamed. I've got this addiction. I've got this thing. What is your advice to leaders who are really struggling with a sense of I can't talk to any about anyone about this. There's just too much shame. >> Well, that's kind of the root of shame, right? I can't talk to anyone about this. Shame at its core is that, you know, that sense that we're stuck in disconnection and um I'm not enough. I'm not worth it. I don't belong. Uh what I'm do doing doesn't matter. That's a really tough place to be in and that's a really tough reality to name. And so the antidote to shame is always connection.

That's also the greatest risk. And I think you just sort of line me up for that one. Set me up for that one because um I I do think I do think that a lot of the the guys that I talk to and I I work with a lot of male pastors. I work with women too, but >> um >> they will say, "I Chuck, I literally don't have anyone to talk to." and we'll sort of scour the, you know, the mental rolodex to ask what about elders and former elders and a parishioner that you might trust and that you know that uh that guy you went to seminary with or whatever it might be and um I mean if shame hijacks your system there there may be a sense of like oh they won't be able to hold that I could never say that out loud to that person or my wife's not capable of hearing that and so this is where shame uh shame has the capac capacity to take us out completely, you know, and um shame shame is what drives so many of the addictions that I see that end up leading to the massive moral failures failures. Shame is what drives the relational strategies that prompt pastors to either isolate or fight on on the on the opposite end of that. And so, you know, I I uh I want to catch it was as we were talking about earlier, I want to catch shame earlier rather than later because if I'm dealing with it later, I'm usually dealing with that wider debris field. If I catch it earlier, we we can

begin to talk about how they experience it, who they can let in. And like that 32-year-old pastor, there was a sense that uh there was a malleability there that I I don't as often see in pastors my age and older. >> And so uh yeah, we want to catch a little bit earlier. And uh but we also want to know that um we want to understand that this is a powerful force within the human heart. >> Want to talk about a couple more things and then get into solutions. So for years you had a picture of Jean Vanet hanging in your office and >> I think a lot of us we live in an age where we look up to people and there have just been so many leaders who have fallen and Vanet it was discovered I don't know I can't remember whether it was before or after he died >> that he had had a a number like a serial list of sexual manipulation of women um abusive relationships And I mean there's another hero fallen >> and he was somebody who was hugely influential in Henry Nen's life.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Jean Vanet. >> So what what >> how was that on you and what did you learn from that incident? So yeah, it was Veter and at several others in my first church office in the um in the mid 1990s and I uh I had taught a class in fact at the the seminary where I am on Jean Vignet and a theology of pastoral presence and so it it uh knocked me over. It barreled me over and uh you know there it it feels like nowadays that there are a few heroes right like John Bonet for me felt like uh maybe Henry Nan might have felt if he were still living you know there's someone that I know is trustworthy like there's there's a solidity there there's substance there's depth there's consistency over time you know all the things that I talk about when I talk about character that um you can see and yet if you look at a story. Uh very important person in his life given his own background, his family of origin, his own dad issues, you know, a very important person in his life became sort of oversized and overly influential uh led a small mystical cult within the Catholic Church where uh essentially abuse of women in the name of Jesus kind of mystical abuse. They wouldn't have called it abuse. They called it mystical union. they they uh they sanctified it like we all do with our sin, right? Um

uh he was drawn into this mystical cult within the Catholic Church and and uh it sort of remained compartmentalized like most sin does for many many years. This is not something that he talked about publicly although people knew of his connections to this this guy. I'm forgetting the name of the guy who was such an influence on him. But but you know, I I think about the reality that Jean Vignet was um was probably insecure and uh like I am. That Jean Vignet needed a dad like I need a dad. That Jean Vanet um looked to this person who had some influence and charisma who said, "Oh, no. This is okay. We all have needs and we can we can participate mystical union in the presence of the Holy Spirit in this sacred act with Right." Yeah. So I I have the same response that you did and I made me sick to my stomach when I heard it. And yet he's drawn into this and uh it remains this very secretive part of his life until stories begin to be told after he dies and there's a there's an entire uh um inquiry into it. Uh what's tricky about it is that uh you know for a lot of us I mean I get these calls pretty regularly where someone will say not that guy not my my pastor >> like >> that's not someone I thought was capable of of doing that right and and there there's that reality that we can live with parts of our lives fairly compartmentalized for a long long period

of time and this is what happens when we're not known when we don't have people in our lives who we disclose things to. I'm not talking about accountability groups. I'm just talking about connection. I'm talking about do you have someone that you can talk to to say all the things to your public self, your private self, your secret self. You know, here are some of the things that are going on or here are the things that I'm thinking or the things that I've wondered about with vulnerability. Uh it's very very easy early on to begin to learn patterns of of subdri. You argue that we've traded character for charisma. Yeah. >> In the church today. >> Um, talk more about that. What What do you mean? >> Yeah. I mean, there's no problem with charisma, right? I mean, I suspect that people are drawn to your podcast because you've got some charisma. You know, they like listening to you. You've got a personality. But charisma is at that level of personality, right? And there are a lot of I think we we've taken some some key personality features or spiritual gifts and we've made those central. We've prioritized those, you know, and so >> u and and it's really stunning to me because what we're talking about, you know, this character conversation does not need to be too complex. We're talking about love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and faithfulness and goodness and gentleness, self-control, right? Like we're we're talking about things that um [snorts] grow in you in the right conditions with sunlight and watering, you know, in the

right conditions with good mentoring and good formation, whether that's in a seminary context or an early ministry context or with a mentor, a good apprenticeship. But uh what I hear from pastors is I never got that. What I got was uh certain another C is certainty. get all the content right. This is what I got back in the day. By the way, you you don't know this, Carrie, about me, but I came into seminary in 1995 knowing all the answers to the test already. Like God's gift to the reformed church because I was the guy who went to all the conferences and knew the knew all the things and had memorized the Westminster Shorter Catechism. >> Knowledge is a weapon, right? >> Yeah. And it became weaponized. And thank the Lord. In 1996, I had a professor come to me and say, "Chuck, um you uh you haven't done your work and you need to do your work." And the reality is is you're probably already dangerous to the church. Um you know, you got in my face and named reality in a way that invited me to begin to uh enter into a new kind of conversation.

But uh you know, that's I just I recognize how rare that is. So, if you don't have that, if you're listening right now and you don't have that, who in your life might be able to offer that to you to you or who might you be able to call a spiritual director, a counselor, or a coach to begin to engage a conversation about something like that? >> So, what do you do? There's more than a few people listening, watching who have been told they're charismatic. I mean, I don't remember exactly how old I was, but it was certainly by college. It might have been in high school. People said, "Man, you've got charisma." >> Yeah. >> And you know, I don't know what that means. And and I wasn't trying to conjure it up like it was just it's either there or not. I guess the Greek uh origin of the word is gift. So maybe it's a gift. I don't know. >> Um but when when I was leading the church and we were going through, you know, for us relatively rapid growth, >> the the number one of the top criticisms and I think it was fair is like this is the cult of Carrie. This is charismatic.

And as soon as he goes, it's all going to fall apart. >> Yeah. >> And so I worked really hard. I wasn't doing I'm sure I misused the charisma if it's a gift at times, etc. I really worked hard to build a team and build a structure and now I'm happy to say I'm 11 years later, it's twice as big and growing like crazy and >> nobody even knows who I am anymore. That's great. But now I'm doing this, >> you know. So if you whether I'm charismatic or not, I mean, that was something that some of us got labeled with early on. And if you have that personality, >> yes, >> what do you do? >> Well, it's a gift, right? You just named it. You know, it is a gift. And that does not preclude you from doing the work. You know, we're [laughter] like the guy I talked to not too long ago who was a realtor like a year ago and his senior pastor at a large multi-sight church said, "You're our next campus pastor." And he was just plucked out of I mean it and it felt really good to him to be noticed by this lead pastor. And so he was plucked out of real estate and he was um he was put on stage and he knew some of the Bible, you know, he grown up in the church and he did a good job for about six months until he slept with his secretary, you know, and like no zero formation >> because a charismatic person can lead people. So I think what you're talking about is is like charisma is important and it's an asset in ministry but if it's built on the foundation of character which is more slow grown um

just think about the kind of ministry that you can have then you know if it's if there's a sense that it's it's born out of substance you know and that confidence your communication skills um uh the way you engage people you it's Um if if it's if it's anchored I think in in character and that fruits of the spirit and love and joy and peace, patience, kindness and so on, there's there's something about it that's really redemptive. Absent that, I think it can be really destructive. >> Yeah. Yeah. So help us work on our character. Can you give us some tangible things that we can do >> to make sure whether we're naturally charismatic or not? um whether things are growing quickly, growing slowly or declining cuz decline is its own form of sadness in a lot of us too that can lead us into destructive patterns. >> Yeah.

>> What do we have to do to make sure our character stays intact? >> Yeah. >> Or grows. Forget intact. Grows, deepens, broadens. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think it begins with um the kind of curiosity that uh allows you to ask that kind of question in the first place, right? If it's if if you're the pastor who said to me by the presbyter or something like that, chances are you're not coming with a whole lot of curiosity. But if you're like, I I really I really want to grow. I want to be a person of substance. I want to be able to listen better. I want to be able to engage more curiously. Yeah. Well, then then we're like halfway there. Uh maybe even more than that. Uh and then it, you know, I think the next piece might just be noticing some of the automaticities that I named earlier. Uh we begin by noticing uh how you show up in the present and we get curious about where those patterns started, right? And so it it we all have bad days and so we're not going to take a oneoff, you know, like, you know, Carrie sort of uh, you know, was kind of really down last night and he was a a pooper at the party, you know, and like, oh, Carrie's always like that. No, Carrie's just having a bad night. What we get curious about are the patterns, like how you show up regularly. Um, who knows you well enough or, you know, how how can you report on, you know, the guys who sit with me, they're kind of telling on themselves. this is this is this kind of

what what you get if you work for me uh if you're married to me this is what it looks like. Uh we begin to notice and then we begin to get curious at a deeper level like where where did that start? You know where did you learn that you know that that was the way to operate in the world. Um, and then we we sort of go backwards, right? I mean, we we want to uh if these are habits that have become automaticities and second nature, well, you can't behave your way out of them. You know, there's not a sense that I could say just here's a little trick and uh your character will change overnight. Uh what we begin to do is we begin to reshape those patterns and that takes a lot of intentionality. I often say attention and intention. It takes noticing. noticing at that physiological level what's happening. So we we need to notice you know if if many of our patterns are patterns of sympathetic storm as I was talking about earlier I'd want to work on uh uh inviting you into that place I call home to that rooted and grounded place. Um, from there you have a a well, let me let me just back up. From that more activated place, from that more sympathetically activated place, that place I call storm, it's really hard to change. And so, if you're you're eager to change, we've got to shift you to that place that I call home. Um, o only because when you're in that more sympathetically activated place, I keep doing this with my fists.

It's it means that you're braced. It means that you're living life in a mode of reactivity, in a mode of fight or flight. And so if we can slowly turn down the volume level of your physiology so that you begin to settle into your body, so that you're more rooted and grounded, so that you're more capacious and open. Well, then your body uh your nervous system um your brain is more available to change. We know we know uh uh from uh better neuroscientists than me that our brains are more malleable when our bodies are anchored in this place of um vententral home, when we're when we're grounded, when we are breathing, um when we're not as prone to uh reactivity. And so that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that that that curiosity. I'm looking for you to notice your patterns. I'm looking for a a wider curious curiosity about your story. I'm looking for you to pay attention to your physiology. And this feels like a lot perhaps, but this is why I call it slow work. If it were, you know, if it were fast food, I give you the the drive-thru recipe, you know, but if this is slow work, then we've got to work at the level of your story, at the level of your physiology, so that from that new place, from that rooted and grounded place, you you begin to shift in ways that create new habits, new automaticities. Um, this is what I do

now. This is what I love to do now. This is how I show up now. This is how I make decisions now. uh you're operating from in a sense a new consciousness, a new physiology at that point. >> Chuck, what are you doing right now to deepen and grow your character to widen that sense of home? What's a a practice, a discipline, uh >> posture that is really helping you deepen your character? So I, as you might imagine, I've I've tried to do this kind of work, particularly over the last 15 years since I landed in the hospital and my life was turned upside down. Um, and it began by noticing some of these patterns and very intentionally beginning to shift some of these patterns. That took me um doing that anchoring work that I described. Um, I'd love to be able to say I have named all of my patterns and I am living in perpetual like a you know perpetual but that's not what life is.

That's not what home is. And the reality is that there are some some patterns that I've not yet dealt with yet. They're patterns that I've not yet seen. There are automaticities that keep on keeping on in my life that my wife might name uh a student of mine might name. There are times when my body um remembers what it was like to live in sympathetic storm. It's as if I left Egypt and I go back to Egypt because it's what is familiar. And so there are times that I go back and I go back there because frankly that's where I got some applause. That's where I had some success, right? And so, uh, after after a couple of weeks, maybe, uh, a month, Brian or John or Kyle or one of my good friends says, "Hey, you know, I haven't heard from you lately, and it just feels like you're going hard. What's going on with you?" You know, and we have a conversation. I notice, "Oh, I'm back in storm." And it was that quick because my body, you know, my neural pathways have changed. some old ones have have sort of uh died, but there's still the memory of those neural patterns and it's my my body is like, "Oh, let's go back there again. That was such a lovely time in our life, you know." Uh and so we're right back there just like that. And so I I catch myself in the act and I return it. It's sort of like that passage in passage in Isaiah 30 in repentance and rest and quietness and trust. You know,

there's that turning that needs to happen. I turn again. I repent again. I find my way home again. I anchor there again. I live there for a while in that beautiful new geography. But eventually, as things get busy in a semester starts and I have a book coming out, uh check in with me in about a month. Gary, you know what book season is? >> Oh, I do. >> And um and there may be a sense that uh yeah, yeah, I need to return again. I sort of got out um got out or got back to some of those old practices that I learned back in Egypt. >> It sounds to me it's self-awareness for sure. >> Um recommitting yourself to the practice of becoming better, getting rid of the, you know, shortening your seasons and storm and fog and getting back to home. The other thing I've I've I've found too is I used to beat myself up. I used to always think of there being a finish line. That, oh, that was me who needed therapy back then, but now >> look at me. I'm redeemed. I'm resilient.

And I no longer believe that. I feel like it is book launch season for me. When this comes out, I'll be in the midst of a storm. >> But I'm not going to live in a storm. And I've got a date on a calendar. And I'm thinking about next year differently. I sort of fell into the old pattern earlier this year of yes, yes, yes. Too many yeses. >> Yeah. >> And we've reflected on that as a team. We've looked at it as a team. My wife and I have discussed it. I prayed about it. And I'm like, yeah, I don't want to live in a constant state of hyper vigilance or jet lag or time zones. And so, next year will be a little bit different. I mean, I think this this mission behind the book might be worth it, but I I find I my old self would be, oh, how did you let that happened? You failed. And now I'm like, well, okay, I learned a few things again. And it's sort of like a like a like a loop, you know, that you just it keeps moving along, but I I beat myself up less and I just realize, yeah, okay, I've learned some new things. let's move ahead with some new behaviors.

>> Yeah, >> that's it. Right. I mean, I I think I I think that uh each of us finds ourselves in that place where we realize we haven't come to the finish line. And um there's this phrase from across the Christian tradition, particularly in some of the contemplatives, begin again. We get to again. And with every season like the one I'm in now where things will ramp up and books need to be launched and all the things, uh, I I'll recognize probably in about three or four weeks from now, I'll I'll hear that whisper of begin again, find your way back home, breathe. Uh I we just had a a real busy we we've got two married daughters and uh we should be empty nesters except that they keep coming back to our house and staying overnight and visiting um on the weekends and u and it was a packed weekend and I didn't have that spaciousness that I longed for coming into this new week new semester. And so even even today coming into the office, I sat down in my chair over there this morning with about 15 minutes before my first client this morning and just breathed and realized, yeah, this is going to be a season of substorrm.

And as long as I can remain in my window as much as possible, um I'll I'll be okay. If I start to notice Carrie in, you know, 2 3 4 weeks from now that um I'm not getting getting as much sleep, uh I'm going to alcohol a bit more, having few too many cups of coffee in the morning, getting short with my wife, uh those will be things that I hopefully I I have got enough self-awareness to notice those things about myself. And if I don't notice, hopefully a good friend of mine or my wife will say, "Hey, here we go again." >> It's the old pattern. It's the old story restoring once again, Chuck. It's time to return home again. It's time to begin again. >> I think the joy that I've had and you've had for 14 years, I've had for 20 since my burnout >> is we know what home is like. >> Yes. Yes. >> And if you've only lived in storm or fog, you don't even know what awaits you.

>> And so I think that's the promise in the invitation to people listening. Last question for you. >> Yeah. I'm increasingly thinking about the pace of the world, what AI is going to do to the algorithms, to our debate. 25 years of social media, nobody thinks that's a net positive at this point, I don't think. And Jonathan Height, Jean Twangi, and others have pointed out just how divided and polarized and ugly we become as a [clears throat] culture and how alone we become as a culture. And I don't think AI is going to make that any better. And so when I think about where the culture is at, we seem to be in perpetual storm and perpetual fog. >> And I wonder if, and I just love your take on this, sort of my my thesis that I'm developing in real time is >> to use your metaphors, somebody who spends a lot of time in home, unhurried, thoughtful prayerful >> Yeah.

>> doing the deep work. >> Yeah. that, you know, first of all, much better way to live, much more grounded way to live, but secondly, I wonder if it becomes some kind of competitive advantage in the future that we're going to be able to see things differently >> than people living in perpetual storm or fog. If that's clear, any reaction to that, any thoughts on that? >> Yeah, that's that's spot on from my vantage point. from a physiological and a neurological perspective, I think, >> yeah, you have more brain power to put it simply. You know, your your body, your brain is more expansive. There's there's more capacity as we've been talking about. >> And so, I think from that place too, these things that come along don't become the thing itself. They're merely a tool that we can use and we can put down when we're done with it. You know, I think that's my worry with AI is when it becomes more than a tool. It becomes your brain. Um that's when there's a significant loss and we're losing our humanity. >> I'm very worried about that.

>> So yeah, and I mean I I paid attention to some of uh what you've said and written about these kinds of things. I think it's important to pay attention to some folks who are sort of leading conversations about what do we do in the midst of this this age. Um I think we probably be we become a bit too dualistic in times like this. I'm all in. I've got friends because I pastored in San Francisco. I've got friends in Silicon Valley who are like, "This is the future. Embrace it now, Chuck." And I've got friends who are lites, you know, haven't quite used found a way to use the internet yet or email yet. >> No, this is terrible. I I want to remain rooted and grounded in love and that as these things come um I'm able to to pick it up and use it as as a tool for a few minutes for a particular time and put it back down and not lose myself in it. And that's you know that's what the ancients called detachment. >> Um that's what Augustine talked about that's what the desert fathers and mothers talked about this posture of open-handedness. Yeah. dispossessive desire. I can um I can engage, but I don't I don't need to be lost in it.

>> You know, it's so funny. I think that's a very great way to say it because it would be easy if you read the headlines to think I'm a lite or I don't use AI. My next meeting after this, we have an AI specialist coming in and he's going to help our company become much more AI forward so that we can boost our productivity. Yeah. Etc., etc., So I can spend more time in home. >> So I can spend more time rooted >> deeply doing the work that only I can do. Using my heart, mind, soul, and strength >> to glorify God and letting AI do more of the the heavy lifting >> that isn't cognitive. So yeah. Well, the new book is called Who You're Becoming. Chuck, I'm really excited that you put some more good out in the world. Tell us where people can find the book. obviously everywhere books are sold, but is there any particular website or where they can track with you and your work? >> Yeah, folks can track with me at my website, chuckgrow.net. Um, I started something called the soul care collaborative. So, if you're intrigued by these five-day intensives, um, I've got a team of folks that I've vetted who do that kind of work and do ordinary soul care work. I've got spiritual directors and coaches and executive coaches. And so, um, I'm on all the socials except I'm not doing TikTok. I can't do it. Um, but uh I'm on Instagram at Chuck Gro.

>> No criticism there. >> Substack at sitwithchuck and um not hard to find me. Just do a little Google search or ask a I suppose. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Chuck, thanks so much. I look forward to our next conversation. Appreciate all you're doing for leaders and making sure that not only we stay in the game, but that we stay rooted and grounded in the things that matter most. Thank you. >> Thanks, man. Man, [clears throat] that's a conversation we keep having again and again here on the podcast in different ways. And I think it's just so needed. You know what? Nobody gets into leadership, particularly church leadership, hoping to screw up their lives, hoping to blow it, hoping to become difficult. Maybe maybe some people do, but like I don't know anybody who wants to do that, yet we end up in a very different place. So, I hope you found this conversation helpful. If you want show notes that will give you access to everything Chuck and I talked about, including everything he mentioned at the end, you can join the over 23,000 leaders that are in my art of leadership academy. You can join for free anytime.

Just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. You'll find everything there. And if you haven't yet, hit follow or subscribe. You may want to do that. We've got Ron Johnson, story of the founding of the Apple Store. What was Steve Jobs really like? Andy Stanley. I love this conversation. More like a different angle of what uh we had talked about with Chuck today, like how do you know how to lead yourself? Well, Lisa Turkers, Ron Freriedman, Mark Batterson, and a whole lot more. Also, Malcolm Gladwell this fall. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can leave a review or comment. The algorithm picks up on that stuff and sends the show to other people. When you do that, guess what? We get the best guests in the world. So, thank you so much for helping us with that. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.